Auto Engine + Manual Gearbox

[funkymonkey]

Hey guys, just doing some background research on AWD RB25DET engines. I've got a R32 GTS4 that I'm looking at getting converted to RB25DET in Japan. Parts aren't an issue, but I need to figure out what I need to do to make it all work.

The most likely donor of the AWD RB25DET engine is a Stagea. Auto Stag non-neo engines are cheap as chips for low km ones in good condition. The R32 GTS4 is a manual (with an RB20DET). It has a front diff with a ratio of 4.3. GTR's have a ratio of 4.111. Auto Stagea's have a ratio of 4.083. Manual Stagea's have a ratio of 4.111.

What will I need to do to make sure that the RB25DET out of an auto stag can be used in a manual R32 GTS4 as far as diff/gearbox is concerned?

[Duncan]

sounds like a mess to me

But re the diffs obviously they both have to be the same ratio. AFAIK all the 4wd rb blocks are the same so the easiest way is to use the gts4 sump and diff on the bottom of the rb25. That will give you same ratio front and rear.

Gearbox....assuming the gts4 gearbox bolts straight to the rb25 all you need is a flywheel presumably you can use the gts4 one as well. Tailshaft should still bolt up fine since you are not changing the length of the gearbox.

Why do you want it done in jp, surely its cheaper to do here? and you can keep an eye on it?

[StageZilla]

Hey guys, just doing some background research on AWD RB25DET engines. I've got a R32 GTS4 that I'm looking at getting converted to RB25DET in Japan. Parts aren't an issue, but I need to figure out what I need to do to make it all work.

The most likely donor of the AWD RB25DET engine is a Stagea. Auto Stag non-neo engines are cheap as chips for low km ones in good condition. The R32 GTS4 is a manual (with an RB20DET). It has a front diff with a ratio of 4.3. GTR's have a ratio of 4.111. Auto Stagea's have a ratio of 4.083. Manual Stagea's have a ratio of 4.111.

What will I need to do to make sure that the RB25DET out of an auto stag can be used in a manual R32 GTS4 as far as diff/gearbox is concerned?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

auto non neo rb25 stagea rs fours have 4.3 gears in both diffs, (well mine does and it was a stock as rb25, etc so i dont think the previous owner would of changed it)

gearbox will fit as they are same bellhousings on all rb's, and engine should be str8 bolt in, and then u will have to run a different ecu as the stagea auto ecu wont work with the manual, and best option is aftermarket ecu. or possibly they can get the rb20 ecu to be retuned and run a rb25, but not sure, worth a look if u wanna do it cheaper.

[funkymonkey]

Duncan, the cost of engine plus swap is gonna cost me about 2.5 to 3 grand in japan, whereas it'll cost me a lot more in Australia, plus I'll have an engine I need to get rid of etc. Stagea engines aren't common here yet, and AWD RB25DET's didn't come in R33's. So I'll have to pay for shipping of a car AND and engine, which is a little redundant.

StageZilla, that's interesting about the 4.3 ratio of non neo stageas, because the ratios I dug up were Neo6 turbo ratios. So technically the AWD GTS4 system shouldn't have any worries if I got a series 1 stagea engine swapped in. My other alternative would be to upgrade front and rear diffs to GTR items, which I don't really wanna do.

Are there any other issues other than ECU with bolting an auto engine into a manual car? There's no secondary throttle for traction control or anything like that is there?

As for ECU I was thinking about putting a Power FC in as I'm going to be bolting on some aftermarket turbos to it. Regular Power FC's support non-neo AWD RB25DET's right or do I need to get a special one?

[StageZilla]

Duncan, the cost of engine plus swap is gonna cost me about 2.5 to 3 grand in japan, whereas it'll cost me a lot more in Australia, plus I'll have an engine I need to get rid of etc. Stagea engines aren't common here yet, and AWD RB25DET's didn't come in R33's. So I'll have to pay for shipping of a car AND and engine, which is a little redundant.

StageZilla, that's interesting about the 4.3 ratio of non neo stageas, because the ratios I dug up were Neo6 turbo ratios. So technically the AWD GTS4 system shouldn't have any worries if I got a series 1 stagea engine swapped in. My other alternative would be to upgrade front and rear diffs to GTR items, which I don't really wanna do.

Are there any other issues other than ECU with bolting an auto engine into a manual car? There's no secondary throttle for traction control or anything like that is there?

As for ECU I was thinking about putting a Power FC in as I'm going to be bolting on some aftermarket turbos to it. Regular Power FC's support non-neo AWD RB25DET's right or do I need to get a special one?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no power fc was made for non neo rb25s cause they were all auto.

gts-t r33 wouldnt work because of the 4wd.

i read a post from sk about using a rb26 power fc and delete a airflow meter i think, or something like that, makes it difficult not having any non neo manual versions.

one other thing is they gotta remove a collar on the back of the crank to be able to bolt the flywheel and clutch on as the collar is for the autos torque convertor, simple task and the shop should know anyway, its just a tight pressed fit, and we used a grinder to cut one side abit (of the collar not crank) and it fell out

thats about all i know, hope it is of some use

cheers

Brad

[GoldZilla]

Hmmm, StageZilla,

I'm puzzled now because my Stagea's been converted to manual, but the previous owner said nothing about the computer, so I've assumed that it's still the standard one...

So is the RB26 PFC the way to go if I wanna change computer in the future? Or could I get an R-33 RB-25 one and have the wiring loom modified to fit? Or R-32 GTS4 so it handles the AWD?

I'm confused.

Nick T.

[funkymonkey]

R32 GTS4 doesn't have Power FC available for it. The GTSt one is done by Apex Engineering, but it dosen't suit AWD.

Just looked through the service manuals for the GTS4 and the front diff is a F160, the same as a GTR. The Rear diff is a R200V for the GTS4 and the GTR has an R200.

Looks like it can be done with a standard Series 1 Stagea Engine and an R32 GTS4 gearbox, using the standard Stagea ECU...

Like this guy here

http://www.ktplan.net/fairyrein/joukyu.htm

If I remember correctly the R33 RB25DE and RB25DET ECU's are the same, and they are also the same for manual and auto. I've attached the ECU pinouts from the japanese service manuals I have for the R32 and R33. It might be of help.

I don't know if I'll be running into the same complications people have when converting their auto stageas to manual, as the GTS4 is already AWD and manual, just needs the engine changed. The engine so far can be sourced out of a ENC34 laurel, a WGNC34 stagea, or a NY34 cedric or gloria. Unfortunately all of them bar one model of series 2 stagea are all auto

In any case I've ordered the japanese stagea service manuals for the W34 series, hopefully that'll help me a little better.

[AlexCim]

I have a r33 gtst manual pfc ready to go in mine when the time comes.

I also bought a std 96 s2 gtst ecu with the plug to convert the engine harness and the std ecu for EPA's etc, So i dont see why a normal ecu couldnt just be used

[funkymonkey]

have you plugged in the PFC to see if it works?

Just that on the Apexi catalogue it dosen't list the ENR33 as a supported model. That said, the stock ECR33 and ENR33 ECU's seem to be exactly the same, so maybe it might work.

Definitely keen to know if it works. Almost all the Stagea owners I've read on japanese BBS's all use F-Con V Pro's on their Stageas, so that might be an alternative.

[Tangles]

How high of a level of tune are you going?

Im using a Z32AFM & a Apexi SAFC & a dual stage EBC, with an Apexi SITC for that little extra tuning potential........ is a PFC always neccessary?

Brendan

[funkymonkey]

well I have a TD06-25G sitting in my garage waiting to be strapped onto the RB25DET when it gets here... so its a pretty high level of tune I'm going for

[xRHETTx]

This is a wild guess but maybe you can use the Rb26 power fc, and just use 2 AFMS? GTR ones or use a DFA (coz i know you love them Shan) to modify the output of a single AFM to suit whatever the PFC needs?

[StageZilla]

This is a wild guess but maybe you can use the Rb26 power fc, and just use 2 AFMS? GTR ones or use a DFA (coz i know you love them Shan) to modify the output of a single AFM to suit whatever the PFC needs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

are the rb26 main ecu plugs the same as non neo rb25 plugs? cause u will need the rb26 engine harness if they are different, and then all the plugs onto engine sensors will be different (most anyway) as i used a rb20 harness on my rb25 in the vl and it definately wasnt a str8 fit

alex i'd be finding out bout the r33 gts-t power fc use in a 4wd application because there are 3 outputs from the factory ecu to the attessa ecu and they wouldnt be hooked up at all with the 33 gts-t pfc.

just some observations

cheers

Brad

[funkymonkey]

well weirdly enough I got an email back from the dude with the GTS4 and the stagea engine in japan, he says he's just using the standard auto stagea ECU, and running a piggyback air fuel adjuster on it (HKS F-Con V... lol surprise surprise). Which means a stock ECU and DFA will do exactly what his does, not sure if the DFA/DBC can support a TD06 and slightly heavy mods.. guess I'll find out soon enough.

I've asked him where he got his conversion done, and if its in Tokyo or a surrounding prefecture then I'll probably just send the car there to have it done.

[AlexCim]

Are you sure they are OUPUTS, not inputs?

What cars is the PowerFC supported on?

200sx S14 93/10 - 96/5

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 91/1 - 93/12

200sx S13 Red Top 91/1 - 93/9

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 94/1 - 96/7

200sx S14 96/6 - 98/12

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 96/8 - 99/1

200sx S15 99/1 - 02/7

Honda Civic Type R 97/6-98/8

Honda Integra Type R 95/9-01/6

Mazda RX7 Series 1-3 91/12-95/11

Mazda RX7 Series 4 95/12-98/12

Mazda RX7 Series 5 99/1-00/9

Mitsubish Evo VI 99/1-01/1

Mitsubish Evo V 98/1 - 98/12

Mitsubish Evo VII 01/2 - 02/3

Nissan Pulsar GTiR RNN14 SR20DET 90/8 - 95/1

Silvia S13 CA18DET 88/5 - 91/ 1 Specialized Unit

Silvia S13 CA18DET 88/5-91/1

Skyline ER34

Skyline HCR32 89/5 - 93/8

Skyline HCR32 RB20DET 89/5-93/8

Skyline BNR34

Skyline BNR32/BCNR33

Skyline ECR33

Subaru WRX Ver1,2 92/11-96/8

Subaru WRX Ver5,6 98/9-00/7

Subaru WRX Ver3,4 96/9-98/8

Toyota Celica ST205 3S-GTE 94/2 - 99/9

Toyota MR2 SW20 91/12-93/10 Version 1

Toyota Supra JZA80 93/5 - 97/8 with loom

There is no 4wd PowerFC, but SKA is running a PFC and it is working? I have asked him to check what model he is using, i hope those pins from the std loom just are not connected....

We shall see i guess

---- EDIT -----

StageZilla, got any ideas which pins are the atessa ones? Speaking to Mercury, i was told the 33GTST wont be correct. They say they are just using a plug and play PFC too yet there are no 4WD PFC's which are not GTR, which wont run on RB25's. So i presume they just ignored those pins or something....meaning i can just replug mine for the 33GTST plug and use the GTST PFC.

Edited October 31, 2005 by AlexCim

[StageZilla]

Are you sure they are OUPUTS, not inputs?

What cars is the PowerFC supported on?

200sx S14 93/10 - 96/5

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 91/1 - 93/12

200sx S13 Red Top 91/1 - 93/9

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 94/1 - 96/7

200sx S14 96/6 - 98/12

180sx RPS13 (Red Head) 96/8 - 99/1

200sx S15 99/1 - 02/7

Honda Civic Type R 97/6-98/8

Honda Integra Type R 95/9-01/6

Mazda RX7 Series 1-3 91/12-95/11

Mazda RX7 Series 4 95/12-98/12

Mazda RX7 Series 5 99/1-00/9

Mitsubish Evo VI 99/1-01/1

Mitsubish Evo V 98/1 - 98/12

Mitsubish Evo VII 01/2 - 02/3

Nissan Pulsar GTiR RNN14 SR20DET 90/8 - 95/1

Silvia S13 CA18DET 88/5 - 91/ 1 Specialized Unit

Silvia S13 CA18DET 88/5-91/1

Skyline ER34

Skyline HCR32 89/5 - 93/8

Skyline HCR32 RB20DET 89/5-93/8

Skyline BNR34

Skyline BNR32/BCNR33

Skyline ECR33

Subaru WRX Ver1,2 92/11-96/8

Subaru WRX Ver5,6 98/9-00/7

Subaru WRX Ver3,4 96/9-98/8

Toyota Celica ST205 3S-GTE 94/2 - 99/9

Toyota MR2 SW20 91/12-93/10 Version 1

Toyota Supra JZA80 93/5 - 97/8 with loom 

There is no 4wd PowerFC, but SKA is running a PFC and it is working? I have asked him to check what model he is using, i hope those pins from the std loom just are not connected....

We shall see i guess

---- EDIT -----

StageZilla, got any ideas which pins are the atessa ones? Speaking to Mercury, i was told the 33GTST wont be correct. They say they are just using a plug and play PFC too yet there are no 4WD PFC's which are not GTR, which wont run on RB25's. So i presume they just ignored those pins or something....meaning i can just replug mine for the 33GTST plug and use the GTST PFC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok from the nissan workshop manual heres a little pic from the attessa ecu wiring diagram...

they tell the attessa the engine speed, throttle signal + and -

Edited October 31, 2005 by StageZilla

[AlexCim]

I am sure that can be hard wired up correctly, as the R33 MUST have those outputs, just probably on different pins?

Are they extra pins, or different pins?

[funkymonkey]

Pins 7, 56 and 30 on the ECCS Control Unit (or ECU) are common to a lot of other devices in the car, including Automatic gearbox control, cruise control, speedo, HICAS etc. Pins 104 and 25 are specific to RB25DET's (RB25DE's have no inputs into those pins).

From the looks of it, it seems that ATTESSA ETS (on an R33 at least) can be wired up manually using a standard GTSt ECU.

[AlexCim]

Ok, i am going to go to my local nissan spare parts and ask for a stagea auto ecu pin out. I know it could be different to the GTT pinouts that are floating around, but being mates with the fellas there, im sure they will be helpful. Will also be good to finally have a copy of the real pin outs

As a side note, the S1 is basically identical to the R33 GTR in set up i reckon.

[StageZilla]

Ok, i am going to go to my local nissan spare parts and ask for a stagea auto ecu pin out. I know it could be different to the GTT pinouts that are floating around, but being mates with the fellas there, im sure they will be helpful. Will also be good to finally have a copy of the real pin outs

As a side note, the S1 is basically identical to the R33 GTR in set up i reckon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

do u mean auto ecu pinout or attessa ecu pinout?

because r33 gtr's dont come in auto