Lithium

Awesome - what is the T78 power delivery compared to the PT6766? Actually discussed the two turbos with someone recently.... they had a T78-33D, then went to a T51R-Kai, and are still not content with how much lag they have for the power they are making (on a stock stroke RB26) and looking for a suitable way forward.

Trust me, panties are faaaaar from twisted. They have been in the past, but now I'm past caring enough to throw pearls before swine I only post here for selfish reasons... such as if something is amusing me, or if there is something that might broaden my knowledge - the 7163 is quite a different beast so has piqued my interest. Let us know what the point is that you believe you will be proving people wrong on so we can congratulate you and whoever disagreed can eat their hat and adjust their beliefs, or point and laugh at you - whichever is relevant once the outcome being debated is realised... and also let me know what my turbo preferences are - given as far as I knew I have no general preferences, and am more about finding what suits someone's specific needs best. I'm guessing you've assumed I am all about either Borg Warner EFRs or Forced Performance HTAs because you know I very obviously rate them and other things as having offerings equal or better to GTXs depending on the situation - but if you look at that from a non-GTX fanboi viewpoint you'd realise that saying something might possibly be suited to a non-GTX turbo is not saying that unit or brand is the best thing in the world... as the GTX turbos aren't themselves, either. The GTX-range are good but do not the perfect answers to everyone's questions, and there is no single brand that is - IMHO, but it helps to keep an open mind and understand the pros and cons to the different beasts on the market, if you want to get the best bang for your buck to suit your tastes. I am at this stage a bit cautious about the EFR7163's suitability to RB25s - particularly the 60lb/min claim, would be nice if BW release a turbine map or someone attaches one to SOMETHING of any kind and leans on it enough to show what the things can punch like in the real world... so far the only numbers I recall seeing from them don't make them stand out as being a useful 50+lb/min turbo, but pretty responsive for the flow they have provided so far. If they can do that extra 5-10lb/min "nicely", then wow.

As always when buying a turbo there are various things to consider. In the situation you mention you are taking a stance based on the following points: 1) You are clearly a Garrett GTX fanboi, nothing wrong with that 2) There is an unusually cheap special going currently with conflicts with the NORMAL market price for a Garrett GTX turbo as used in this comparison, and comes without housings 3) There are reasonable quality non-genuine housings which you are willing to pay for cheaply to go with to get a good turbo for a good price Whenever buying a turbo, one has to decide the combination between performance potential, price, power, reliability, and general confidence in the product and decide what it is worth it to you in an individual case. In this case the GTX3071R is a roaringly obvious choice for yourself, nothing wrong with that- I'd be tempted if I were on the market for a turbo and looking for a bargain too. It doesn't make the comparison direct, or typical - however. It could be taken a step further and one could ask whether the same GTX3071R is worth it over a Kamak STS Billet TD06SL2-20G or 25G? You have the choice of slightly more power with a bit less response, or slightly less power with a bit more response for cheaper again. The world is your oyster, this thread is about discussing the EFRs though - and as such a bargain bin GTX3071R with a Taiwanese housing on it is cute, but it's wrong.

None of them are on methanol, or using nitrous oxide - though I'd assume the ethanol blends are more like 98% Here's a late model EVO doing 8s at >160mph on a PT6466 on E85 weighing 2700lbs (really light for an EVO 9, but comparable with PJ's car) - for interests sake in the off season this car is undergoing a bunch of weight reduction and upgraded to a FP Super99 HTZ. Fairly good chance this thing is going to be one to watch next season! http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-racing/667853-8-77-163-junk-box-evo-boostin-performance.html Yes, it's incredible how far things have come - really really cool times we live in! I was ecstatic when I did 12s with an R33 GTS25t back around 2006/2007... so much for that lol.

You have well and truly proven you can set up and steer this thing, amazing stuff Something which still boggles my mind is the times some of these guys in the states are doing with EVOs/DSMs with small/medium size turbos - there are a number of guys trapping between 160-170mph on 64mm and 67mm turbos in what must be similar weight cars. I'm not sure wth to make of it, do you have any theories (or wisdom) on how they are pulling that off when you are using a 82mm turbo to get to similar traps? I know it could seem like I am being facetious, but I am totally not - it's a thing I've been genuinely trying to get my head around, I consider anything that runs over 140mph as completely mind bendingly fast and the step up to run 160+mph I still struggle to comprehend being able to achieve with something which still looks like a car and without a turbo which is under 76mm.

What are you looking at to see the difference the lightweight turbine makes? Quick look around Full-Race's site answers the price comparison pretty easily: EFR7163 = $1855 GTX3071R = $1781 I'd pay the extra $66 in a heartbeat!

Yep imho that kind of thing happens all over - when you have various people of various backgrounds, experience levels etc then you easily end up with a turbulent flow and there is always going to be messy highs and lows. Where I am working things seem pretty laminar (relatively speaking), basically a whole pile of people who are level, intelligent and feel like they are working towards a relatively common goal - but I guess a certain amount of that comes down to company culture and managing to hire the right people to keep it consistent, if they are able to. So it looks like we're on topic

Nice! Precision are also about to release a few more of their new Gen2 CEA range - probably one of the more interesting to 'streetable' people fiends on here would be the PT6870, which is apparently rated to just over 1000hp. Will be interesting to see how that goes when results start filtering through.

I reckon so - work for NZ's Meteorological Service as a software engineer, developing software which is used to create weather related shows using meteorological data... like this: Channel 7 in Oz use our software, amongst a bunch of other stations around the world - definitely my cup of tea, I always was into science and also programming (especially graphics related) so pretty sweet to get paid doing stuff I could do for fun Going OT no doubt, but it's interesting seeing what goes on behind the scenes with folks that frequent these forums and talk about almost completely unrelated stuff What do you do exactly that means you need to tweak bits and bytes from a low level?

Looks promising - what fuel is that? .85lambda is on the leaner side for 25psi on the fuels I have tuned with

That's not surprising, because at those rpm and that boost it's probably pissed off that that's all you got it out of bed for

Ahh cool - was wondering if it was something like that

Nice Isn't there already a MR33 in Sydney?

True - I'd had the conversation recently with a couple of geek mates about whether Assembly is likely to be used much, if not at all recently... partly for the reasons you provided below. I really am too lazy and don't have the motivation to get into that kind of coding these days, I don't think I've been in a situation where the novelty or necessity of it has really arisen. Haha the last piece of assembly code I wrote was a 2.5kb self contained game as a result of a geeky dick swinging session on FidoNet, I still have it floating around but I am getting less and less confident I will be able to run it on anything soon due to it being MS-DOS based and using direct hardware access etc. I was fully inspired by that kind of thing, I learnt how to write machine code using a VIC-20 which didn't have enough memory to hold an assembler AND do anything useful with it (~5kb of user memory). We used to try and squeeze as much as we could out of seriously under-power machines, and it was amazing what people could get C64s/Amigas/early PCs to do - real time. I think the me over 20+ years ago would be both amazed and (/ or?) horrified at the code I do now hahahaha.

Nice find, and good on you for putting together the post to share it I've never used a Nistune, and not sure that I will but it helps to know about this as a possible thing I could encounter if I do In other news, reading that first post gave me a hell of a nostelgic moment haha... this is the first time I have seen assembly code which looked like it could belong on an 8bit Commodore or Atari computer (Motorola style assembly language) a discussion I'd be reading for interests sake in maybe nearly 30 years!! And the last time I did would have been in a computer magazine/newsletter that people wrote into with their questions and answers, so you'd potentially have to wait weeks before you had answers The last time I think I've seen assembly code come up in an online conversation was probably about 15 years ago (around the time I stopped doing that kind of thing for the fun of it) and I don't think I ever expected to see the stuff again, much less on a forum about Skylines! Way to go, made my day haha

Totally - I was absolutely not saying the BWs are crap, just it's a bit frustrating or even surprising how little info there is on there. I suppose the best thing Precision have over the EFRs are the whole "better the devil you know" angle... because they have been around for so long if you do your research you'll find that they all make the kind of power figures they are sold as being good for doing (the power claims have adjusted to suit), the respond reasonably well for the power they can make compared with a lot of units out there, and you know that they seem to have a slightly higher failure rate than other things in their price range. The good Borg Warner EFR results DO suggest they are equal or better than the equivalent Precision units, but for every reasonable EFR result there is probably 100+ Precision ones. Again, this is likely to be a lot (if not everything) to do with how long Precision have been doing their turbos, versus how slowly the EFRs have been leaking into the market. Good thing we have Garrett and FP, eh?

^ Agreed - now I've decided not to do it for sure, I actually was all but sold on building my RB25 and going a twin scroll EFR7670 for it a year or so ago, a variety of events (probably one of the biggest was the EFR supply and reliability issues at the time) gave me time to rethink my priorities... I think it would have made for a lot of fun. I'd not go that small on anything bigger than an RB25, though. I hope abr33 can get his EFR7670 setup running better, his results don't add up year - and I'm hoping it's not because the EFR7670 isn't all it's cracked up to be. There are still too many results of EFRs out there which are "not a bad result, xxx and yyy isn't ideal yet but should be able to be sorted" but never are. Not necessarily the turbo's fault, but while that is the majority it gets a bit frustrating trying to work out what you should expect. I really can't believe there are so few good results out there for them!

What raises my eyebrow is it's a 64 trim compressor, that is a hell of a trim - usually suggests lazy response for external diameter and a surge risk (quite glance at the map and the surge line definitely leans over to the right harder than some), again I can't really make any call on what it means as it's clearly such a different design to anything else I've seen - I am SO interested in seeing how this turns out, I love it that I am puzzled. I hope it's because we're going to be surprised and amazed, we've been waiting long enough and the EFR hype promised a tidal wave and has still really only provided a bit of a swell.

I checked the map back to where it dropped to ~65% efficiency (where a lot of the Garretts cut off at) and it was still around 55-57lb/min which is pretty damn good - GTX3071R territory I guess, which isn't at all bad or surprising.

New page on the FullRace site: http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-7163-turbo.html I find it very hard to believe that BW have managed to squeeze a usable 61lb/min out of a 71mm OD compressor, but I would be both silly and hypocritical to say it can't be done because I haven't seen anything like it before and don't know exactly how BW have done things in order to reach that claimed performance. Very very very interested to see how things go when these start showing up on some cars, if it does meet the claims then this should be a game changer all by itself.

Argh, weird scale - it's really hard to tell the power numbers... though can see that it definitely wants more rpm! Looks like it is at 20psi by just after 4000rpm which isn't too bad, reasonably quick ramp rate too - does it actually feel laggy at all on the road.... how comparable is it with the GT3076R on the RB25 to drive?

Share results for it, regardless of outcome - if possible... very keen to hear what a GTX2867R with alcohol and on kill will do. I don't see it hitting that target on a "normal" Oz dyno. I can see somewhere near 330kw @ hubs (depending on dyno setup, etc) being plausible, pushing it HARD.

Wtf. What engine is that on? And what standard dump pipe flange? While I prefer the HTA turbos... A GTX3076R should be yawning at that power level, this is definitely sounding like a case of working out what isn't working the way it should. I wouldn't spend a lot of money swapping turbos at this stage Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Refer to my avatar. I don't know what angle the tuner/engine builder are coming from with this combination of parts but hope it works out well for you - do the same as everyone else and you get the same results, sometimes its for the better... good luck with the rest of this, update when you've got the bugs ironed out as I am sure a number of us would be very interested to see how this come out

Awesome - glad it's finally at that stage, I would have thought it'd at least survive the dyno tune with a bit more boost so you don't need to go back for another tune just to get more from what you already had. Either way, good power at that boost... how does the spool look, and how does it drive? Happy?