Lithium

Boostin Performance's (in the US) Eagle Talon is now running a Super 99 HTZ now and this weekend ran an 8.18 @ 176mph at it's first meet running that turbo in a bit of anger. The car then went to a "King of the Streets" event which is V8 dominated and took out it's class, running consistent low 8s. Pretty crazy stuff on a h-pattern 2litre AWD car - most other AWDs (short of R35s) running these kinds of time have methanol/nitrous and of course T4/T6 framed turbos etc.

I already compared the EFR8374 and twin 6258s earlier in this thread - saying the EFR6258s would be laggier, there is no surprise that a pair of 44lb/min turbos may be laggier than a single 79lb/min turbo. You seem to be locked on the twins not flowing much up high, but two EFR6258s is serious business in terms of flow... you have here a turbo kit capable of making power near what the 3.2 you mentioned earlier and is making full boost on a 2.6 by the same kind of rpm as the Precision single on that 3.2. The single EFRs were on 3litres - 2.6 litres versus 3 litres and even 3.2 litres are quite big differences in displacement when it comes to comparing driving a turbo, where the effects of displacement is compounding as boost comes into it

Yep! Its quite funny that, there is not sudden new understanding of fluid dynamics etc which means we are able to produce magic we couldn't before - a lot of the designs around are based on previously documented ideas, if not straight off (ie GTX - which I am mostly not a huge fan of, but threw that in there to not step on toes) already utilised designs etc... however a lot of it comes down to what is available to the public, and for an affordable price. We also of course need things which suit our applications specifically - a F1 turbo may or may not be well suited to an RB. Borg Warner EFR turbos are used in IndyCar racing, Honda IndyCars currently use the EFR9180. Yep What I tend to do is keep an eye out on the units which consistently provide good results, the 6466 is one which seems to have delivered WELL for everyone who have used them.... they are one of the good one, but by all means not the only one. Ahh nice, yeah the HTAs are awesome things - they tend to both spool well for their size, and make good power for their size

Indeed there is a lot of work there to give it every chance of doing as well as it can, and it will deliver the numbers you are looking for - just not necessarily as nicely as other things... Naturally anything which has been done which would help this turbo will obviously help other ones in the same kind of way and hopefully give you overall setup the best chance of performing to your expectations. Safe bet it is going to be an animal, no matter what - and with that tight exhaust scroll it's probably going to come on quite savagely once it starts getting some moment haha. The 6466 type result is not outside the norm anymore, it's the new norm for those dabbling in Precision, Forced Performance HTA, Garrett GTX and Borg Warner EFR turbos when sized appropriately Anyway, will be keeping a good eye on it - will be very interesting too see an old school turbo used with some of the best of the latest technology, it's going to be a heck of a ride regardless of whether it is laggy as or a response monster :-)

Was a mate's one, and it was a long time ago so hazy on details but pretty sure it was quite a small one. In terms of a/r - not all things are equal, you wouldn't use a 0.7 on the EFR... As evidenced by the lack of option for one haha. The 1.05 EFR would flow quite a lot better and be even more responsive again than the T70- all tighter a/r does is speeds up the exhaust flow for a given amount of energy, it still has the bigger heavier wheels to move and will need to overcome the same inertia. The early EFRs definitely had issues, and I was not so much of a fan (ie, wouldn't have mentioned them ;-)) until it seemed clear they had sorted it out. Took years for them to finally start being supplied reliably, in various ways haha. Anyway part of the point wasn't just this specific one, there are various very impressive units out there which will do what you are looking for though alas compressor maps are thin on the ground for them. I do know JEM had a GTR there recently with a Precision PT6466 which would be interesting to compare spool with when you get yours done.

I was envisaging 1.05 twin scroll. It's not straight Titanium, it's a composite they call Gamma-Ti which is meant to be durable in the operating conditions it would experience. This is the turbo : http://www.full-race.com/store/turbos/borgwarner-efr/borgwarner-efr-9180-turbo.html

No offense taken, and trying not to offend you either - reason I am here is I am excited about the build, and I naturally like discussing things which are both awesome but also intrigue me. Yep I know what the T70 can do, and have been able to read maps for quite some time. The trick is the map shows what the turbo is capable of, but not how it goes about it's business. The pumping the compressor does can be produced in different ways - the trim is just one of many different variables, the design of the wheel can be totally different while having the same trim and produce very different results to another wheel with the same measurements. It also can come down to the rest of the turbocharger, ie what turbine is attached to it, how that is designed and how they efectively interact. You can have BB or JB cores, different materials etc etc. The reason I don't really like the T70 isn't that it can't provide the air flow, or do so with reasonable compressor efficiency - its more the energy required to get the thing up and moving, and nature of how it gets up and moving and staying there. How inefficient it is overall means that I am more comfortable with what I can extrapolate of compressor efficiency of more modern turbochargers which don't have published maps than using something like that - most of them have (or would have if they were supplied) such wide maps they are less of an issue to fit into than the 30+year old T-series wheels that Turbonetics use, there are so many dyno and real world results out that it's pretty easy to tell what is going to work. I recommended the GT3076R-HTA to Mat (who got his car tuned at JEM) without a compressor map, but a reasonable mental picture of what could be expected from both the design and what people I have spoken to have achieved with them - his results ended up within a few kw of where I said it'd be most likely to deliver. In saying all that - as it turns out the turbo which I think would perform the best for what you are doing DOES have a compressor map, and would IMHO be a complete different beast to the T70: The turbo has a much smaller compressor exducer (91mm) and only 67.7mm inducer, and has some VERY nice aeros which obviously results in it actually flowing more than the T70 and operating efficiently at very high boost levels, as well as flowing well at low pressure ratios. It has much less inertia so will naturally spool and respond better just off the weight of that, then there is the fancy ball bearing core, the fact that the turbine is made of Titanium Alloy (light as hell and again way better design). Its essentially like a turbo which is smaller than a T70 which provides everything a T70 would and a bit more - everywhere

I'll re-iterate, I am blown away with the whole build - I didn't mean to offend, and certainly don't mean to say I could do it better... at least when it comes to the engine build, fabrication etc. I've never built an RB to make that power (on that note are you going to be running E85?) so far bit it from me to question anything there. The only thing which did make me raise an eyebrow was the T70 based turbo, and hence me asking as I figured you'd either say "wink wink nudge nudge" implying that its hardly an off the shelf T70 if not say what has been done there... because otherwise it is just using an old Turbonetics turbo on what is otherwise an amazing build, and when the turbo has in ways the biggest influence on how the engine is going to be able to perform given most of the good stuff will be relying on the turbocharger to provide extra air mass in a timely fashion. The reason I say that is I've experienced first hand an RB30 Skyline running a Turbonetics T70 and the thing was horrible in spool and response considering it had a 3litre engine, by comparison I've also experienced a GTR with a T04Z on an RB30DET making similar power to the T70 car and due to expectations of what a 3litre 450+awkw GTR being set by the Turbonetics one I nearly shat myself when the T04Z tried to rip tarmac up at rpm where the T70 one felt like it had just realised it had a turbo and was sheepishly asking it whether it could give it some decent boost at some point, please. The ride in the T70 Skyline was my first experience of an RB30 and I actually didn't think too much of their advantage over a 2.6 for some time because of the experience, so discovering that it was actually nothing to do with the engine so much as the air pump hobbling it... and that is one of the reasons I decided I *really* get my teeth into trying to understand dynamics between engines and the things attached to them as while that was an extreme case, it does show that the turbo can make an otherwise crap setup awesome and an awesome setup crap. So if you're going to take that line, a formula for a quicker 500kw car is do exactly what you are doing - but put a better turbo on it, because unless there is some very sneaky stuff you have done to the Turbonetics turbo which essentially would mean calling it a Turbonetics T70 would be very misleading and I'd really have no idea of it's potential... then I would be completely surprised to see a result which no other turbo could match on your setup. I like surprises, as it means there is more for me to learn and more ways to go fast - and I love seeing good results, which is the only reason I questioned it. Looking forward to seeing how it goes, anyway

Yours? Any more details on the setup?

Yeah they aren't bad, I do like them and the 6466 is probably the turbo of their range i do feel is stand out... But they don't have an untainted reputation either. Wow, the EFRs were priced competitively for a while but just had a look and you are quite right, pretty expensive again now. FP have started getting a bit more competitive with their pricing and are also bringing out new beasts and directly targeting Precision as it seems Precision have been getting a lot of love for stuff they do well, but not necessarily as well (or at least better) than FP's. FP have put together a table to address this haha Anyway probably too much non EFR talk unless someone has a comparison between and EFR and something else due to be added?

Rpm on a stock stroke RB26... Not bad spool for a 1000hp capable turbo

There is a Precision thread if you want to post more details in there. Sounds ok for a cheaper turbo, however there is a BW EFR8374 internal wastegate result of over 600whp on pump gas and low boost ( 20psi) on an RB30 making full boost before 3500rpm. Would love to see an EFR9180 on an RB32, should happily deliver that power with better spool though - only RB I know of with one is Full race who make 762hp with full boost at 5000

Good question, beyond being the first overhaul of the FP compressor designs since the HTAs came out I know nothing, so who knows what sizes, specs, prices or ETA yet but I will post if I hear any more

No, there are just a lot of Precision fanbois that insist that without providing any solid proof. The Precisions are proven to perform really well but their prices aren't ultra cheap, their reliability is below all their competitors. I do like them but they are in cases overrated. The only test I know of against an EFR was against a 8374 on a Supra where the testing was biased massively towards the Precision the biggest thing I remember was the EFR was a twin scroll one put onto a car which was setup for the Precision T4 open turbo, ie open manifold. Despite it being well known that doing that will do bad things to both power and spool, the EFR out spooled the Precision and made respectable power however fell a bit short of the Precision... Not sure if it would have matched or bettered it but it was within spitting distance despite being choked, so really when peopll the declared the Precision as the moral winner for being a bit cheaper and performing ad good or better, I was impressed the EFR did so well when you know that on a proper twin entry manifold it would have been a different turbo....

I thought the EFR6255 never ended up being a thing?

One of the reasons I am not sold on twins - I'd personally go an EFR8374 Is that a stoke stroke one? That is pretty serious spool for that power, again EFR6258s are very big for twins on a 2.6 - and it's pretty amazing they are comparable with -5s in spool. Going for a slightly smaller single equivalent would make for a hell of a ride imho

If you know anyone who might be that way inclined, let them know about this: Super94 HTA: http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTFPSUPER94&Category_Code=Turbo-FP Super99 HTA: http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=NTFPSUPER99&Category_Code=Turbo-FP The T3 Super94 and Super99 HTA turbos are currently at US$1725 which is getting near standard Garrett GT turbo price, they are doing a clearance (and also looking like they are digging the boot into Precision as they said let on EvoM to them know if you are looking at getting a PT BB and they'll price accordingly...) as the new generation HTZ turbos will be coming soon.

WOW ok while it still is a crapload of power for 850s that makes it seem a bit more understandable that it managed to make it - most wouldn't push that hard but regardless that more or less confirms it was moving the air needed to make that power and really the injectors were just no way near up to the task. 1200cc even seem like they're pushing it if you're aiming for over 500kw! Yeah no question that the auto result was high IDC for the power, and the reasons are reasonably clear. All makes sense now

Bri73y on here had (or maybe has again?) EFR6258s on his R32 GTR, he may be able to give feed back on how they respond and flow - an EFR8374 would also be awesome, sound like sensible alternatives to -5s if you're looking for more power

That exhaust restriction (or lack thereof) also plays a part in that air mass being moved, even though it is down stream. The raising exhaust manifold pressure is a symptom of the hold up - another symptom of a restrictive turbo hotside, exhaust system or whatever is the drop off in VE you see in the fuel map as rpm/load get up to the area a restriction starts forming. Again, required fuel flow (especially with a very knock resistant fuel like E85) is the single best indicator of power potential

Almost everything you have mentioned there still comes down to air mass - an AFR relates to air mass (which accounts for pressure, density, flow etc) as opposed to psi - doesn't matter what heating or cooling has happened prior to reaching the cylinders, the air mass and fuel mass that get into the engine will be what cause what AFR you measure, and as such what amount of fuel needed to be moved by the injectors. Sure, timing will affect the BSFC - but not that much, unless things were being pushed WAY too hard. But realistically the 465kw number is the anomaly, not the 340kw one. [edit: Saw you were at 100% duty cycle] - Sounds like there is something wrong there, one is on the low side and one on the high

Are you still using a 72mm Turbonetics turbo to do it? I agree with "500kw doesn't state how fast a car is" sentiment, but the brand "Turbonetics" and 72mm each spell "lag" to me - ie, not exactly the quickest 500kw you could get Otherwise, amazing build!! Look forward to seeing how this comes out

465kw is actually a hell of a lot from 850cc injectors on E85, I had thought the same thing when I saw the result. By more efficient - I can assure you one thing, it's nothing to do with the turbo as all that does is moves air. Air fuel ratio literally means air/fuel, the power comes from a combo of the engine's ability to make a certain amount of power with a certain amount of fuel (and obviously air relates to that), and how much air is passing through it. The ability of a turbocharged spark ignited engine to make more/less power with a certain amount of air/fuel only varies by a few percent - so by "efficient" the following things are the most likely things I can think of: 1) The tune is leaner (less fuel for the amount of air) 2) The dyno is being more generous 3) The injectors are "very efficient" 850cc injectors?! I can't think of anything else?!

Agreed - looking forward to him bringing out more

On an RB? Hard to fit and rather laggy - but probably not too bad for a setup capable of ridiculous hp.