Thunder

No idea what the noise is - probably just the video mic or the dyno whinging!!! The driver complained that when he pulled 4th gear doing 160 - 180km/h at the track, if he put his foot down, it smoked the 300mm wide slicks!!! Since then we freshened up the engine, softened the suspension, and did some brake work, so it will be pretty quick at the track. There are lots of LSX powered street registered cars with far more power than the Z

My LS1 bakes 4th - doesn't everyones??? https://youtu.be/yjBYU5mbkqo

The pipe measurement is always the OD size, and the stock ports are only about 1.5" The 5.7 engine lacks power and torque down low. The 6.0 litre engine has plenty of power and torque down low. The stock engine is doggy down low, which is nothing to do with the exhaust, however, going too big on the extractors and exhaust makes the problem worse, not better. On a manual, you can rev the engine and dump the clutch, and if it has a cam it has a lot more power and torque right through the rev range. A cam would add 40rwkw - 60rwkw. (60rwkw is more power than some 4 cylinder cars) An auto needs a stallie to give a similar effect. Diff gears will also increase the torque and acceleration. A cam makes it go a lot better, and sound aggro. My point was this, and I am only guessing at prices here, but the extractors & cats $1800, Stallie $2500, Diff Gears $1700, Cam/Lifters/Injectors/Tune $5000 = around $11,000 yet you could buy a VZ or a VE with a 6.0 litre engine cheaper. The 6.0 has far more power and torque than a 5.7 litre and a lot of these second hand cars already have a string of mods done to them. The same as the droning issue. $680 gets a system that sounds great and is designed to be drone free. If the old system was ebayed you may get $400 which means changeover = $280. The valve option was $1200 for the kit, plus fitting. Let us know what they are like in a month or so, and compare your fuel usage as well.

The other video clip on 4>1 doesn't work. On the auto's we usually fitted tri-y's unless the customer specifically wanted 4>1. That video clip was a while ago, but I am pretty sure it would have been tri-y's. The 3.5" system, combined with Ballistic 100cpsi Racing cats sounds great no matter what extractors are fitted. Adding a cam makes it even better. 4>1 will give a higher dyno number - probably 20rwkw extra. 4>1 will give a quicker 1/4 mile time but you probably need a stallie as well. However, 4>1 are doggie down low on the 5.7 litre, but the addition of diff gears will help the low - mid range acceleration. What a dyno sheet doesn't tell you is how much extra fuel you will use on a street car, or how low the extractors sit when you go into shopping centre carparks or steep driveways. Most cars are driven on the street 99% of time and only go to the track, or a dyno day every now and again. Cheers Greg

Yes, the valves have their uses, and in some vehicles (Bridgeported rotaries, etc) it is the only way to keep them quiet. How much would a dual 2.5" cat back system be with your setup? I'm guessing it is pretty expensive by the time everything is fitted, wired and plumbed up. These cars aren't too hard to stop the drone.

We don't do any for the 5.0 litre. I would use a set of Pacemaker. Cheers Greg

The dual 2.5" systems sound disappointing, so DF removed their "Kiss Pipe" (merge) and it basically just has a small hole between the pipes. This makes the sound beefier and why they do it that way. Other people chop out mufflers to make them sound better and this increases the drone. Yes, fitting a proper full flow merge will help with the drone. Yes, fitting bigger mufflers will make it drone less, but it also kills the sound. Bi Modal systems, ie vacuum operated valves, block the flow in order to stop the droning. They work, but they also restrict the power. These are all costly. There is no substitute for R&D as there is a balance between power, sound & no drone, and most systems fail on one or more of these. It is no use having a no drone system that sounds like a vacuum cleaner, or one that blocks a pipe to stop the drone as it robs power. It is no benefit spending 3 times the amount you need to spend using a system with valves when it robs power and sound as well. With lots of experimenting and R&D you can have a 3.5" system that is completely straight through, sounds great and doesn't drone. The difference being, it was specifically designed for this car, for auto and manual, and so it makes power, sounds great and doesn't drone. Cheers Greg Cheers Greg

The only model HSV headers that were good from the factory are the VY2, and these are nearly as good as a set of aftermarket tri-y's. They are still a bit restricted in the collector, but far better than any other model. VT-VY1 are rubbish so don't bother with them. From the extractors you have one cat on each side. The 3.5" system is twin 2.5" which merges into a single 3.5" system, so it still uses both cats. The video clips you posted that sound good have cams fitted, which makes them sound aggro, and they sound even better with a 3.5" system. The size of the cam and the way it is tuned also have an effect on the sound. Search on Youtube for "Sureflo 3.5" and you will probably find some cammed cars up there as well. Ballistic 100cpsi Racing cats also make the sound a lot louder and deeper and add around 10rwkw to your power. The price of 2nd hand cars now, if you want to modify a car, I would seriously think of selling yours and upgrading to a VZ - VE which have the 6.0 litre, that way you can look for a manual. On the VE they spread the wheels by 100mm so it also handles better. It may not cost much in the changeover, so I would look around. The 5.7 is very doggy down low, but the 6.0 has far more power and torque right through the rev range. The modifications you are talking about are probably $10k and will have it going as good or a bit better than a stock 6.0 litre. I would start with the 6.0 litre and then bang for buck you will get much more enjoyment. On a 5.7 if you want to fit 4>1 you really need to upgrade the diff to 3.73 for auto or 3.9 for manual which will fix the lack of power and torque down low. This is probably another $1500 on top of the manual conversion. The cam/valve spring upgrade will probably cost $5k by the time it is tuned, and then you may need to upgrade the fuel as well. You are talking big money if you are going this far, but if you traded for a manual VZ or manual VE the changeover won't be too much if you look around. They were also selling the VF GTS supercharged crate engines for around $13k-15k brand new - that would be a weapon straight out of the box!!! It's only money!!! Cheers Greg

I'm also late to this conversation, and owning an Exhaust Shop that specialises in custom, we have our own dyno, and our niche is GenX Commodores and non droning systems. The worst model for drone is an auto wagon, and our early test mule was a VX auto wagon. The newer (VE-VF) worst model is the auto wagon with AFM and that is my new test mule. Most advice out there is based around dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times, but 99% of these cars are just daily drivers with the occasional track visit. The people that say a DF system is the best is because the Performance Workshop told them it is the best. Most haven't had more than one system, so how would they really know? What suits a manual sedan and doesn't drone, will drone badly on an auto. What doesn't drone with diff gears will drone with stock diff gears. A 20 year olds view of no drone is completely different to a 40 - 60 year olds view. There is lots of conflicting info out there, which is because everyone has a different need, different taste, and different mods. Performance Shops, and a lot of Exhaust Shops that don't like doing custom worl will sell and recommend the brand that they make the most profit on. If they don't have the Exhaust Capability, they will recommend the brands that come as kits from front to back, and that is why DF and X Force are so popular. The exhaust is a compromise. 4>1 hang low on stock FE2 suspension (around 90mm or less on some brands). The legal limit is 100mm so it is a defect without even lowering your car. There are many brands out there, but for quality, we recommend Pacemaker in most instances. For an auto, tri-y's are a good compromise as they are speed hump friendly. They are good in the low to mid range, but at the top of the rev range they will run out of puff. 0-100km/h they are fine and that's where most of your street driving will be. Someone above mentioned excessive fuel consumption. The 5.7 litre is very doggy down low, so when you go too big it makes the problem worse. This means you have to push the pedal further, and this means excessive fuel consumption. On the VX wagon I had a single 3.5" system and the only change we made was changing from twin 2.5" into 3.5" to twin 3" into 3.5". The wagon is heavy and with stop start driving the fuel consumption rose from 14 to 17 litres/100. For sound, dyno numbers and 1/4 mile times it would have been a positive move, but being a shopping trolley for the wife meant a huge increase in fuel costs over the life of the car, so we changed it back. Using big 4>1 extractors or a twin 3" will have the same result. All of the different brands of twin 2.5" system are basically the same design. Most are made in Asia, compete against each other, and can't add an extra dollar to the quality. They are OK on a manual, but drone badly on an auto. The idle is disappointing, they don't sound too bad when revved, but cruising they drone. On my website there are pictures of the DF Kiss Pipe, but since then they changed to a "Clayton's" merge as the Kiss Pipe takes about 25 - 30% off each pipe, so it is much more restrictive. Now they keep the pipes separate and just have a small hole, which makes the note meatier, but does little for drone or to improve the power and torque. DF make the pipework here, but I believe they buy the muffler bodies off Redback or HM, etc. The Chev has a different firing order, so the sound just doesn't sound as good as the early Chev, Holden V8, or even the Ford engine with a twin 2.5" system. We found the 3.5" single system sounds much better and we make them in several loudnesses so that they are drone free on manuals and auto's. This is a customer enjoying his Loud 3.5" system http://www.surefloexhaust.com.au/media/video/vysv8.mpg I had a customer who had race cars with twin 3" and he said it sounded fluffy, and he changed to 3.5" single and loved it. Chev's in Carrum Downs fitted superchargers to a couple of VY- VZ and they were running twin 3" and the customers hated them because of the drone. He put our 3.5" system on and they loved driving their cars again. They were pushing 400rwkw on the dyno. Do a search on "Sureflo 3.5" and you will find plenty of video clips and lots of info. If is was me, I would ebay the DF system - they have a good name so you might get a good price for it. The 3.5" system is the go and they are $680 in mild steel + tip & freight, which is much cheaper than extractors, Ballistic 100cpsi Racing cats, diff gears, dynamat sound deadening, hooker mufflers, etc and you get a much deeper idle, race car growl when nailed, and it goes quiet when cruising. Cheers Greg

If you look at these video clips, the Commodore is one of our customers. The Mazda took him out, and the Torana also became involved, and I believe it was under yellow flag conditions. Back at the pits the Mazda driver told the Commodore driver that he moved across and hit the Mazda, until he showed him the video footage, and then he said sorry and that was it. Each had to pay for their own repairs, and the Mazda had a bit of black paint on his bumper and finished the race. The Commodore has around $15000 damage and the Torana is completely written off, and they were just innocent bystanders. This is all part of racing, and whether it is an accident, or whether someone runs out of talent, the rules and waivers are there for these reasons. Cheers Greg

+1 There is no changing what happened to Eric. It was disastrous, but it was an accident, and unintentional. My Company and I had nothing to do with this. Waivers were signed so each person accepts the responsibility for whatever happens on the track to themselves, or their vehicle, and there are reasons for this. If I had accepted liability, this may have then led to personal injury claims, etc - and I wasn't even at the track, or entered in the event. I also cannot help what happened between the drivers, as I was not there, nor had I met either of them. A lot of what happened on the day, I am only finding out by what I read in this thread, so if I hadn't thanked people, etc - it is because I did not know what happened. A lot of the derogatory comments were from people other than Eric, and some were not at the track, and they have dragged my company into this event unfairly. Some of my comments were probably poorly written, and misunderstood, which also did not help things. The fact is, Eric's car was hit by the car owned by me, and after the fact, nothing can change this. I offered in this thread, and also behind the scenes, to hold a Charity Dyno Day and BBQ at my workshop for Eric. The accident saddens me, and the news of Eric losing his wifes car altogether, is even sadder news. If the dyno day goes ahead, I hope that the Skyline Forum members will support the cause and help Eric. I am willing to help out, but I can't accept liability - there is a big difference. Whether Eric's car is written off and parted out, or repaired, he is still out of pocket and needs help. Cheers Greg B.S. What goes on in the forum, laps the world for eternity. It can destroy the good name of a business or person, whether fairly, or unfairly, and can leave Forum Owners open to be sued for defamation and damages. What happens at the track should stay at the track! This tragedy was between Eric & Richard and should have been left that way. Everyone wanting to help, could have posted or pledged their help, without dragging other parties into this, and pointing the finger. The outcome would have been a lot better for all parties concerned, and this thread would have been a lot better for it. If this had remained a "Help Eric" thread, I believe it would have achieved far more than it has done to date. I am posting this to help get it moving again, and in the right direction - helping Eric !!! Cheers Greg

According to Jason they are both fine. There was a video camera on the passenger at the time of the accident. Jamie said he looked quite cool through the experience - considering. If it was me in the passenger seat there would have been a few choice words said, and I can only imagine the facial expressions. Cheers Greg

Duncan & Gregor If you can get your fire extinguishers to me I can get them refilled, or I can get you new ones. Let me know either way and I will replace them for you. [email protected] Regards Greg

All this talk of "moral Compass" fails to understand the obvious. When Eric did not get the answer he wanted from Richard, he tried to shift the blame onto me and my business and tried to get me to pay for the damage. I received phone calls and emails and I was threatened with legal action as well as with the SAU forum. There is a right way and a wrong way to ask for assistance. If Eric had accepted that my business and I had nothing to do with the actual incident, and he asked for assistance, we would have endeavoured to help. We would have probably suggested a combined charity dyno day and bbq, as we know this type of event is popular. If I had read this thread and it was all about helping Eric, I would have also suggested the charity dyno day. However, when I read the thread, there were posts from all sorts of people, some of who were not at the track, and there were threats about boycotting my business, wrong information such as "collapsed pedal box due to undersized bolts", etc and I was forced to defend myself instead. Rather than attacking me, my business, the car and Richard, maybe in the future, when such things happen (AS THEY WILL ON A RACE TRACK) people may consider a different approach. Eric was in the wrong place at the wrong time and it was a freak accident. Regards, Greg

Duncan & Gregor, thanks for putting the fire in my car out !!! I wasn't there, so I don't know what happened and who was thanked and who wasn't. I also wasn't there to apologise to Eric, and the first I heard about the accident was around 5.00pm when they were on their way back. The power steering cooler is damaged, the engine oil relocation kit and cooler is damaged and the thermo fans were hard up against the hot turbo and manifold, so the fire was a combination of plastic thermo fans, power steering fluid and engine oil. Obviously the big hole in the radiator did little to put the fire out. I mentioned the brakes appear to be working back at the factory. This is bearing in mind that the car does not run and we are talking about pushing speed, not driving speed. It had brand new Motul RBF660 racing brake fluid, Endless 6 pot calipers, Endless Rotors and near new Endless pads. Brake dust is an uncommon occurance for a Drift Car. The brakes and cooling will be upgraded before it goes to the track again. Eric, Richard would have known you were ahead of him, but he wouldn't have known whether you were going around for another lap, or whether you were exiting. Taking the corner was still the safest option for him and his passenger as it gave him more time to wash off speed. Regards, Greg

Eric, I am replying to 5 pages of comments, and a lot are from other people. Some of the comments are defamatory, and a lot are insulting to say the least. Richard had no brakes and was out of control when he hit you, so he was not overtaking, and you are missing my point. No one had a crystal ball to know what was about to happen, and the first you were probably aware of the accident was when your car came to rest. The period just before the incident, you were the only person in control of a car, that could have done something to avoid the accident, and I am sure if you had a crystal ball or the benefit of hindsight, you would have been going a little faster. Your video shows your car off the racing line, but doing 50 - 60km/h (at best) even while on the race track, and a long way away from pit lane. You were hit in the rear quarter and another 2 - 3 metres would have been enough to miss you. I am not blaming you, but I am pointing out that you were the only person that was in a position to have avoided this, no one else had any opportunity to stop this happening, and as little as 2 - 3 metres was all it would have taken to be out of the way. I did not suggest that it was your responsibilty to move out of the way. If you had the choice of being in this accident, or not being in this accident, what would you choose? If Richard had the same choice, what would he choose? And as the owner of the car, what would I choose? No one wanted to be involved in the accident. From my house a couple of hundred kilometres away, could I have done anything to stop the accident happening? Richard was probably doing 150km/h with no brakes, changing back gears to slow down and take the corner, and when he is nearly round the corner, 2 wheels end up on the grass and he slides out of control. Can he do anything to stop the accident happening? What I was saying was that your car was in control, and it was doing 50 - 60km/h on the race track, and if you knew what was happening behind you, a quick squirt on the accelerator is all that was needed to stop you from being in this situation, or alternatively if you were exiting at say 5km/h more and you wouldn't have been involved. No one else had any opportunity to avoid the accident, and if they did, I am sure they would have taken it. However, we have been crucified on this forum. Is this fair ??? Eric, how much kitty litter is there at that corner between the track and the wall? If you were doing say 150km/h at that corner and lost the brakes, do you think ploughing into the wall head on is the safe thing to do? Richard did not have any other choices, he took the safest option. No one is to blame for the accident, it just happened. This incident is nothing to do with me or my company, yet we have been dragged into this "mud slinging" match. This thread should be about helping you, not pointing the finger at others for what was a terrible incident for all parties concerned. The accident happened and nothing can be done to change this. Everyone needs to move on and help Eric get his car fixed. Regards, Greg Stevenson

As the owner of Sureflo and the 300zx, I would like to clarify a few things. Sorry for the long post. No matter what spin is put on this, it was a tragic accident, and there are 3 innocent victims, not 1 innocent victim. The race car was borrowed by a good friend - Jason, to drive in the SAU/RENEW event. Jason has previously driven this car at Oran Park, the Nissan Nationals at Morgan Park and has competed at Bathurst in his own R32 GTR Skyline. From my understanding, Jason was going to drive my car and his friend Richard, was going to drive Jason's Skyline. I had never met Richard, and from what Jason told me afterwards, he has driven many thousands of laps at Wakefield and was a test driver for a V8 Supercar team. The car was entered by them, and Sureflo had no involvement in the event, nor were any of us at the track. We were told it was a timed event and our only interest was seeing what lap time the car could get. There were trophies for the fastest lap at this event, therefore, it was a speed event and people were encouraged to go fast. Both Richard and Eric signed forms acknowledging that Motorsport is dangerous and accidents occur, and accepting the responsibility and the consequences of a day at the track. Sureflo did not enter the event, did not sign anything, and were hundreds of kilometres away from the track at the time. Richard said the brakes were working beautifully, there was no warning, no deterioration, the brakes just stopped working when he tried to brake at turn 10. Richard has more experience at this track than most people racing cars, and it was his knowledge and split second decision, that told him he had a better chance dropping back a gear and taking the corner than he did if he ploughed through the kitty litter and head on into the wall. Richard believes he would have made the corner if Eric wasn't there. When the car slid on the grass, Richard had no chance of avoiding Eric, so Richard is as much a victim as Eric. Richard had no brakes and was doing his best at the time. On the day, no one had the benefit of a crystal ball, video replays or the benefit of hindsight. This happened in a split second, and the only person who could have done anything about avoiding the accident was Eric. He was in control of his car and travelling very slowly, a potentially dangerous thing to do on any part of the race track. If Eric was exiting at a reasonable speed, or been aware of what was happening around him and sped up, he would have avoided the accident. I am not blaming Eric, as he was merely in the wrong place at the wrong time. Similarly, I am not blaming Richard, as he was doing the best he could at the time, and once the car slid on the grass, he was unable to change direction to avoid Eric. We have looked at the car and there is no split brake line, the pedal box has not collapsed, the master cylinder is still full of new brake fluid, and the brake pads are showing very little wear from new. The discs look like they have got hot, and all I can pinpoint is the brakes must have got too hot as there is no visible mechanical reason for them to have stopped working. Even after the accident, the brakes were working at our factory, so it must have been a heat issue. Up until the point where the brakes stopped working, the driver said they were working perfectly. There has been criticism levelled at me, my company, my car and also the driver. To say that Richard is morally liable is wrong. Both drivers knew the risks, agreed to the rules, and signed the waiver. Yes, the 300zx was fitted with a fire extinguisher, but instead of stopping to put out the fire in the 300zx, Richard raced to the aid of Eric and his passenger instead. This says a lot about Richard's morals. Could Richard have done anything humanly possible to avoid Eric's car??? No ! So, how could he be morally liable? Rightly or wrongly, in all forms of motor racing, unless the accident is deliberate, each party pays for their own damage. Everyone knows the risks, and this is the reason they sign the waiver, and these are the rules everyone has agreed to, and abides by. This isn't a new rule that came into force last week, and lots of people get caught on the wrong side of an accident. Everyone has to remember that car racing is expensive. It is a dangerous sport and very high speeds are involved. This particular corner is notorious for accidents and every driver on a race track needs to be aware of what is happening around them. When cars are racing and reaching speeds of over 200km/h trying to beat their previous times, there is no place on the track where it is safe to be doing 50 - 60km/h. If Eric was watching what was going on, or if Eric was leaving the track at a reasonable speed, this would not have happened to him. At the time of the accident, he was the ONLY person that was able to do something about the predicament and the ONLY one who could have avoided the impact. As harsh as it sounds, this matter is between the 2 drivers and no one else, unless others want to help either party. I feel sorry for Eric, the same as everyone else does. I also feel sorry for Richard, as he had no way of avoiding Eric, and did the best he could under the circumstances. I also feel sorry for myself. We were not a party to this event, I loaned the car to a friend, yet we have been dragged into this mess, and to top it off, our car has a lot more damage than Eric's car. As I mentioned, there are 3 victim's in this, not one, and there are no winners - everyone loses in situations like this. I own this car, but I have never driven it. Dan drives it for me in Drift events, and Jason drives it for me in circuit events. I don't drive it, as I know that it needs someone with experience and talent driving it. This is a dedicated race car, and it is driven by experienced race car drivers. If I had been stupid enough to drive it myself with a 1 day licence, and I stuffed up through my inexperience or negligence, this would be a different matter, but it was being driven by an experienced race car driver, it was a freak accident, it was a speed event, and I wasn't even at the track. This incident is similar to being hit by a bolt of lightning. Eric was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and it is no ones fault - it just happened. Everyone is an expert after the event, but prior, no one had a crystal ball. If I didn't lend my car out ! If Richard came in a lap earlier ! If Eric sped up ! If Eric came in a lap earlier ! What happened is done and there is no changing this, so it is pointless trying to point the finger and blame someone else, or try to change the rules after the event. What happened is tragic, a disaster, unfortunate, unavoidable - there was no malice, no guilty party, it just happened. Watch the V8 supercars or the Brute Utes, etc there are always cars that are casualties through no fault of their own, but this is part and parcel of car racing. As someone mentioned previously, Richard had just had a high speed accident, and done his best to protect his passenger as well as himself, and unfortunately he hit Eric's car. The first thing he did was rush to the aid of Eric and his passenger. This wasn't a low speed bingle on a public road, there are no insurance companies, no exchanging of details, etc. Richard had probably just seen his life flash before his eyes, and it probably scared the crap out of him. Meanwhile, Eric was oblivious to all of this, and the first he knew about the accident was probably when his car came to rest. If Eric's exhaust has been damaged, we will fix it for free. This is not because our car was involved, but because I feel sorry for Eric, and I am willing to help, the same as everyone else on this forum. I applaud the members of this club getting behind Eric and trying to help him out of this terrible situation. However, threats of legal action, calling the driver all sorts of names under the sun, threatening my business, etc does nothing to help this situation, and if anything, makes this situation worse. I hope the contents of this thread change to helping Eric out of this situation, rather than defaming and blaming others, and I hope the fund raising is a success, and covers Eric's costs. Regards, Greg Stevenson

Hi Everyone, The DriftZ will be racing at Oran Park this Sunday 20th September in the Drift Australia series which is televised on Channel 9, SBS and Foxsport. During the "Off Season" we have made quite a few changes to the 300zx Gen 3 turbo setup, which included a custom wide body kit, wider wheels, custom made chrome moly steering arms, etc. We finally got the boost under control and took it to Sam's Performance so Sam could have a fiddle with the tune. He ended up making another 21rwkw for us on a safe tune and low boost - under 6psi. New coilovers and steering arms have helped to keep it stable and controllable on the track, and the wide body kit has allowed us to widen the track with wider wheels which gives us more traction and drive out of the corners. Our driver, Dan Mackie, has had an ankle operation, and his wife is expecting another baby 1 week after the race, so he hasn't had any practise in the car. With all the mods, I hope he gets used to the car pretty quickly. Just like riding a bike - I hope !!! This year they are running a competition at the track to give away a fully prepped drift Car, there will be 1/10th scale remote controlled Drift Cars, as well as a Car Show and Sound Off. Tickets are available through Ticketek and are cheaper than buying them at the gates. If you make it out to the track, come and say hello. Cheers Greg

What suburb are you in?

Hi Everyone, I am new to these forums, I have had a few looks from time to time, but just thought I would introduce myself. I am Greg and I own Sureflo Exhaust at Ingleburn. I own the DriftZ - 300zx with Gen 3 Turbo in the Drift Australia series that Dan Mackie drives. I joined the club and signed up as a Trader as well, as from what I hear from everyone, it is a very good club to belong to and you do a lot of track days. If anyone has any questions or needs help on exhaust, send me an email [email protected] or a PM. Emails get checked several times a day, so this is the quickest way to get hold of me. Cheers Greg