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Aircon Regassers In Melbourne That Use Hychill Hr12 Gas


funkymonkey

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I've had HyChill HR12 before in R12 equipped system, rather than converting to R134a. It runs better, cools better, corrodes less and is eco friendly. Only problem is that the place I had it done was in QLD.

I know HyChill is based in melbourne, so there must be aircon regassers locally that can use em (and not insist on upgrading your system for a small fortune).

For those that don't know:

http://www.hychill.com.au/products/

HR12 is a blend of R600a and R290, two naturally occurring hydrocarbon refrigerant gases and is perfect for use in automotive air-conditioning systems and in refrigeration applications.

HyChill HR12 is derived from uniquely pure natural gas sources, and manufactured to the strictest quality controls.

HR12 is efficient and safe to use, requiring no modification to air conditioning systems and minimal modification to most refrigeration systems.

HyChill HR12 ensures exceptional energy efficiency, dispersing heat much more effectively than fluorocarbon equivalents.

Substantial cost savings for long term operation are achievable by replacing fluorocarbon refrigerants with HR12.

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I've had HyChill HR12 before in R12 equipped system, rather than converting to R134a. It runs better, cools better, corrodes less and is eco friendly. Only problem is that the place I had it done was in QLD.

I know HyChill is based in melbourne, so there must be aircon regassers locally that can use em (and not insist on upgrading your system for a small fortune).

For those that don't know:

http://www.hychill.com.au/products/

thats a very interesting website. I shot them an email asking if they know of any workshops in melbourne metro and i said i would post up the info they give me here. it may take a while for a reply, depending on how long they're on chrissie break for...

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Hey funkymonkey,

Your summary of HyChill's benefits is spot on.

Also, HyChill HR12 (due to its physical properties) is more easily compressed than the traditional refrigerants, resulting in less load on your engine when the AC compressor is on, which is a nice piece of icing on the cake for performance car owners. And it's superior cooling performance really shines on hot days.

You're also correct in surmising that there are lots of AC service shops in VIC that use HyChill. At last assessment one in every 8 to 10 vehicles on the road use HyChill refrigerant in their AC systems, so there naturally is a large network of AC workshops supporting the product.

My only question is: how urgently do you need to know your nearest HyChill-friendly AC workshop? We're all on holidays at the moment and don't resume until Monday Jan 7. If you need to know ASAP, I'll try to contact our Vic regional manager to see if he can pop into the office and get the info you're after.

All the best,

John W Clark

Technical Advisor

HyChill

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Oh wow, small world.

Its strange, a lot of people haven't heard of the EPA friendly alternatives to R134a... I do some work of an importer and from experience, most imports with R12 systems are degassed prior to leaving japan, to avoid complications with the EPA when they land. Pretty much all the companies I've spoken to in melbourne absolutely insist on upgrading the system to R134a, which I reckon is rubbish. An alternative like the HyChill HR12 would be quite viable for owners of these types of cars.

But seeing as I have you guys to ask questions to, there's something that one of my mates commented on that might need clarification. When I told him it was a hydrocarbon based refrigerant he commented that "he wasn't gonna put natural gas into his aircon system in a skyline", especially since the aircon lines are so close to the turbo which can get very hot. What are the dangers of using HR12? I assume being a hydrocarbon it is flammable?

A list of recommended workshops would be ace, preferably those with experience with japanese cars and their AC systems. I'm not in any hurry, so take your time n enjoy the festive season. Cheers for the quick response too.

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I agree with Shan here. a list of who stocks the gas and knows our cars would be awesome. No hurry from me either.I start back at work tomorrow but the pay lady wont be back for a few weeks so i dont have a cash flow at the mo. Happy new years to all and have a great holiday.

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Its strange, a lot of people haven't heard of the EPA friendly alternatives to R134a... I do some work of an importer and from experience, most imports with R12 systems are degassed prior to leaving japan, to avoid complications with the EPA when they land. Pretty much all the companies I've spoken to in melbourne absolutely insist on upgrading the system to R134a, which I reckon is rubbish. An alternative like the HyChill HR12 would be quite viable for owners of these types of cars.

From our point of view, it's not so strange that awareness amongst the general public is so low. We're a small Australian family company competing against the largest chemical companies in the world (DuPont, ICI etc). Before HyChill, they had monopoly control of this market. Monopoly control means financial control and information control. When these alternatives were first commercially introduced over a decade ago these big chemical companies lobbied industry and government heavily using half truths and blatant lies to try and scare senior management and political types away from these alternatives. They showed videos of cars blowing up and claimed this is what would happen if you used these alternative refrigerants. Really dodgy stuff... but most of the non-technical senior management and political types bought it hook-line-and-sinker. So even though a number of major vehicle OEM's have tested HyChill and their engineers love it, as soon as a proposal goes up the management chain it goes into a black hole.

Even if we had the money to do consumer marketing (such as TV), we'd only be encouraging these behemoths to respond, and they would do it with their usual lies and half-truths. The average consumer simply does not have sufficient technical background to discern who is telling the truth. A consumer marketing war would play into their hands. They would spend us into the ground.

But seeing as I have you guys to ask questions to, there's something that one of my mates commented on that might need clarification. When I told him it was a hydrocarbon based refrigerant he commented that "he wasn't gonna put natural gas into his aircon system in a skyline", especially since the aircon lines are so close to the turbo which can get very hot. What are the dangers of using HR12? I assume being a hydrocarbon it is flammable?

Forgive the length of this response below. I just thought I'd err on the side of giving too much information as I feel somewhat of a moral obligation to get this info out there whenever an opportunity presents itself.

The fluid in an AC system has always been flammable. This is a common misconception which the big chemical companies feel no urgency to correct, for obvious marketing reasons. An AC system contains both the refrigerant (which is combustible) and the lubricant (which is also combustible).

The marketing 'spin' trick here by the big chemical companies is that their gases (like R-134a) fall into the "non-flammable" hazard class for storage and handling, and so by making the general statement that their gas is 'non-flammable', they leave people to make the (incorrect) presumption that there is no flammability risk in an AC system using that gas.

About the only thing that is true regarding flammability is that HyChill gas is flammable in under a somewhat wider range of circumstances than R-12 or R-134a. This results in a slightly higher flammability risk. However, a balanced assessment of all the failure modes and probabilities demonstrates that the overall risk is at least no worse with HyChill, or in fact slightly lower.

How could it be lower, you ask? Well, other stuff the spin-doctors won't volunteer to tell you is that R-12 and R-134a reduce into toxic chemicals, especially when combusted. R-12 combustion produces mustard gas (remember that stuff? It's used in chemical weapons). R-134a combustion also produces toxic products of combustion, but you don't even need to combust R-134a for things to get dangerous - it's toxic just to breathe in (causes trifluoroacetic acid to be developed in the body, which is not a good thing) and also produces a bunch of toxins when merely heated above ambient (and how hot is it under your bonnet?). It also produces acids when exposed to water (thus the need for a 'dryer' in your AC circuit, but these only reduce the problem rather than eliminate it).

If that wasn't enough, R-134a is so chemically unstable it can't be used with many standard lubricants, and the most commonly used oils used with R-134a are also toxic (not even skin contact is advisable).

HyChill refrigerant, on the other hand, is a naturally occuring gas that is non-toxic, does not form toxic acids etc if combusted, does not react with water and can be used with simple non-toxic mineral oils.

To put practical numbers on the flammability issue, there have been 15+ years of widespread and safe use of hydrocarbon refrigerants in place of the traditional ("fluorocarbon") refrigerants. During that period there has been over 20 million car-user-years of use of hydrocarbons in AC worldwide with not one recorded case of cabin fire or death resulting from use. During that whole time there has been only a couple of documented cases of engine bay fire triggered by an AC system failure. One was an R-134a system (as I said, they are flammable too). I'm aware of 2 or 3 AC system fires (in the engine bay) that were using hydrocarbons, one of which should never have been operated in the first place as it had an incorrectly installed aftermarket AC system and the other which was due to the service tech failing to abide by basic safety procedures. To get perspective: contrast this with, say, the fact that in the USA alone over 23600 vehicle fires occur due to crashes each year.

It's also helpful to understand that the typical AC system contains about 200 to 300 GRAMS (that is, a very small amount) of refrigerant gas in a completely closed system. Contrast that with the litres and litres of fuel and lubricant running all around the engine bay. The gas cannot spontaneously combust - it needs air (and not just any amount of air, it will only burn when mixed with air between 2% and 10% gas/air mixture) AND it must be ignited by a spark or flame of sufficient energy (for example, a lit cigarette butt is insufficient). So it has to leak out at just the right rate to cause just the right mixture, and just at the right time there needs to be a sufficiently powerful ignition source present. And also keep in mind that when it burns, it 'flashes' (burns and dies out very quickly), unlike petrol or oil which just keeps on burning.

Then there's the environmental issues. It is actually possible to roughly estimate the amount of person-years lost due to global warming. I did some work on it based on IPCC and WHO data, and in the year 2000 alone approximately 770,000 years of life were lost due to death and disease as a result of climate change proportionate to the climate impact of these fluorocarbons in that year.

Welcome to the world of multinational corporation spin doctoring!

If you have any more questions, feel free to fire away. We've got a whole bunch of documentation in our files, with complete references to independent publications on safety etc. (if 15 years of safe real world use wasn't enough).

PS - Skyline AC systems love HyChill! Both my R32 GTST and my cousins R32 GTR get vent temps of around 6 degrees!! Remember though, that if you're AC isn't working now, there's obviously a problem... it may be as simple as a slow leak requiring just a regas, but often it's something more. If it is something more, no matter what gas you use you will never get good results until the root problem is fixed. It's such a basic point, but it's surprising how often people (and even AC techs) forget this.

PPS - Conversions of R-12 systems to R-134a are not only a bad idea because they are expensive, but also because they just don't perform well after conversion. R-134a is a poor cousin (in performance terms) to R-12. They only forced it down the industry's throat because R-12 had to go (because it is hugely ozone depleting) and they had such mindshare control over the industry at the time that no-one in top levels of government and industry even knew at about other alternatives at the time. Simply put, convert an R-12 system to R-134a and you'll get crappy vent temps (especially on hot days)... all that money for nothing.

A list of recommended workshops would be ace, preferably those with experience with japanese cars and their AC systems. I'm not in any hurry, so take your time n enjoy the festive season. Cheers for the quick response too.

PM me your email address and I'll get Ross (or Vic region mgr) to give you a list.

Alternatively, you can call head office on 1300 HYCHIL (1300 4924455) and ask for Ross and he'll hook you up with a list of the nearest workshops that will help you.

Also note that skyline AC systems are nothing particularly special. Virtually all AC systems in passenger cars are essentially the same from a service point of view (with the exception of CO2 systems, which are still very rare and may never be widespread).

One last thing... HyChill HR12 is now called HyChill Minus 30. We've been a bit slow in updating our website.

Take it easy!

John

Technical Advisor

HyChill

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damn wish i knew this before i converted my r32 to r-134a :(

How much would it cost to re-convert from r-134a to Hychill?

Nothing, really.

The R-12 to R-134a conversion is basically just a clean out of the refrigeration circuit (to remove lubricant and moisture), changing the receiver-drier (because R-134a needs a more specialised drier) and possibly some seals (because R-134a will react with them).

HyChill Minus 30 can be used in R-134a systems or R-12 with no mods. The performance loss in the conversion comes from the poor refrigeration properties of the R-134a itself, so switching to HyChill Minus 30 will get you back to top performance.

Unless your system was installed by a top-notch fitter, there will have been moisture let into the system and the R-134a would have begun to eat your system out from the inside. So if you want to maximise the life of your system, get a full flush/clean of the refrigeration circuit first, and ask for an oil other than "PAG" oil to be used. If you're a greenie, ask for a mineral oil, otherwise a "POE" type or Hychill's own SRO 500.

Also found http://www.vasa.org.au/pdf/memberlibrary/h...white_paper.pdf if anyone wants to read up on the other side

cheers

Yeah... VASA is the arm of the fluoro-lobby in Australia. If you read their website you'd think that their singular calling was to campaign try and wipe hydrocarbon refrigerants off the map! These guys are the source of most of the anti-hydrocarbon propaganda in Australia these days.

FYI, the other organisation that used to be just as loud was "AFC" - the Australian Fluorocarbon Council - a lobby group specifically set up by DuPont et al to promote fluorocarbons. However, the AFC (under pressure from some of it's sponsors who now want to market natural refrigerants, including hydrocarbons) told them to turn the volume down. They've now changed their name to "Refrigerants Australia" in a clever tactic to appear like they represent the whole industry, but nothing under the surface has really changed. So, in the interests of balance, readers of this post can google "Refrigerants Australia" if they want to see what 'the other side' says also. They've still got lots of anti-hydrocarbon stuff on their website too. The 'explosion' video they posted there is quite 'shocking'.... at least to people who don't know that it was an extreme experiment at a university and ignition was the specific purpose of the experiment, and hydrocarbons never 'explode'.

Some important facts to keep in mind are:

* VASA has a membership of only a few hundred workshops - a tiny proportion of all workshops. But they certainly try hard to represent themselves as the 'voice of the industry'. Most of the important govt bodies are wise to this organisation now.

* If hydrocarbons are more dangerous in this application, all VASA and the AFC need to do is produce the dead bodies and wrecked cars. They've had fifteen years to come up with evidence to support their views. If they did, not only would they end the hydrocarbon industry, but Hychill would be fined millions of dollars and their officers thrown into jail.

* The best they can do is produce a document with a whole bunch of mere opinions from people with impressive sounding titles. You'll notice a complete absence of any kind of supporting evidence in any of their published material.

But by all means read their stuff - VASA and the AFC would actually make a fairly good real-world study in 'spin' propaganda. And some of it is quite funny.

Cheers

John

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Nothing, really.

The R-12 to R-134a conversion is basically just a clean out of the refrigeration circuit (to remove lubricant and moisture), changing the receiver-drier (because R-134a needs a more specialised drier) and possibly some seals (because R-134a will react with them).

HyChill Minus 30 can be used in R-134a systems or R-12 with no mods. The performance loss in the conversion comes from the poor refrigeration properties of the R-134a itself, so switching to HyChill Minus 30 will get you back to top performance.

Unless your system was installed by a top-notch fitter, there will have been moisture let into the system and the R-134a would have begun to eat your system out from the inside. So if you want to maximise the life of your system, get a full flush/clean of the refrigeration circuit first, and ask for an oil other than "PAG" oil to be used. If you're a greenie, ask for a mineral oil, otherwise a "POE" type or Hychill's own SRO 500.

oh thats great to hear.

I had my compressor changed over during the r134a conversion as mine was on its last legs, so im guessing everything was cleaned out. Once the AC starts losing its chill, ill be filling up with hyChill :(

Ive noticed that after the conversion, my ac drains a lot of power resulting in car stalling when ac first turned on. Hopefully Hychill will be less strain on the compressor and stop the stalling :D

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Ive noticed that after the conversion, my ac drains a lot of power resulting in car stalling when ac first turned on. Hopefully Hychill will be less strain on the compressor and stop the stalling :worship:

Yep - it's totally understandable that you'd notice your ac compressor loading your engine up more now it's trying to compress R-134a.

When properly installed, you should be able to notice a distinct reduction on load on the engine due to the compressor when you switch to HyChill. Other benefits (that may or may not be easy to identify without measuring equipment) is shorter duty cycles (compressor will be engaged for a smaller percentage of the time once the cabin reaches stable temps) and faster cool-down of the cabin from full heat-soak (that is, faster at cooling the cabin down after the car has been sitting idle in the sun).

For future reference, we also recommend getting new and reconditioned AC compressors from C.A.R. (Compressors Automotive Remanufactured) in Keysborough, if for no other reason that they offer double the manufacturers warranty on AC compressors they supply that will be used only with hydrocarbon refrigerants (because hydrocarbons don't corrode AC system internals and therefore last longer).

Contact:

Compressors Automotive Remanufactured (C-A-R)

383 Chandler Rd Keysborough

(03) 9798 2599

Cheers

John

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Hey John,

Just am in the process of rebuilding my engine, thus will need my system regassed in Feb/Mar.

Can you recommend any business that uses your product and comes out on site? Car is currently in Airport West.

Cheers

Alan

PS: No great rush, as i it wont be ready till Feb/Mar.

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just wanna to get it clear......

so with my 32R....i can use HyChill HR12 without changing anything on my car???

yup. Series 2 R32's came with R134a systems, but Series 1's (all the r32's that came in as 15 year imports) had R12 systems, which cannot legally be recharged in Australia as R12 is now not allowed by the EPA. The HyChill Minus 30 (new name for HR12 apparently) is a substitute for the R12 gas, so it can be used to recharge your existing R12 system without changing anything over. Always a good idea to flush the sytem and check for leaks though.

My car (and most 15 year old cars that J-Spec imported) had the canister removed and the system bled prior to being put on the ship from japan, so I'm assuming its simply a matter of having it recharged with the HyChill stuff.

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yup. Series 2 R32's came with R134a systems, but Series 1's (all the r32's that came in as 15 year imports) had R12 systems, which cannot legally be recharged in Australia as R12 is now not allowed by the EPA. The HyChill Minus 30 (new name for HR12 apparently) is a substitute for the R12 gas, so it can be used to recharge your existing R12 system without changing anything over. Always a good idea to flush the sytem and check for leaks though.

My car (and most 15 year old cars that J-Spec imported) had the canister removed and the system bled prior to being put on the ship from japan, so I'm assuming its simply a matter of having it recharged with the HyChill stuff.

so.......is 1992 model category as a series II??? or only 93/94 models are SII???

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Hey John,

Just am in the process of rebuilding my engine, thus will need my system regassed in Feb/Mar.

Can you recommend any business that uses your product and comes out on site? Car is currently in Airport West.

Cheers

Alan

PS: No great rush, as i it wont be ready till Feb/Mar.

Alan,

I'd say it's highly likely that there's some HyChill-friendly mobile AC techs out there, but as I'm not in the sales dept I don't know for sure.

When you're about ready to do your rebuild, give HyChill a call on 1300 HYCHILL or email to [email protected] and let them know that you're looking for an AC tech to come to you and I'm pretty sure our sales guys will be able to hook you up.

Cheers

John

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intresting stuff i though air con gas was JUST air con gas but there seems to be alot more behind it, might have to give this stuff ago

Yeah ali-turko... it's way more than just air con gas.

I haven't yet mentioned the fact that these fluorocarbon gases ('f-gases', for short) is one of the most environmentally damaging man-made chemicals ever produced.

A single charge of R-12 into a typical car AC system, once it leaks to the atmosphere (and all AC systems leak, a lot), is the equivalent of releasing around 10,000 KG of CO2 into the atmosphere. That doesn't even include the ozone depletion caused by R-12.

Once the environmentally-minded people started pushing hard to get R-12 phased out, the f-gas industry pushed R-134a down the market's throat, singing it's praises all the while. In reality, about the only truth in all the propaganda was that R-134a indeed did not harm the ozone layer. The truths that were left untold were:

* It was even less chemically stable than R-12 and formed a whole mess of toxic byproducts

* It suffered from lower performance/poorer energy efficiency

* It was still a potent global warming gas (1300 times more potent than CO2)

The real benefit in switching to R-134a was (surprise surprise) that it forced the AC industry to keep sucking at the f-gas industry's teet. R-134a is patent controlled.... it is only produced by licensees.

HyChill's hydrocarbon refrigerants are not patent controlled, are not ozone depleting at all, have negligible global warming potential (3 times CO2, 430 times lower than R-134a and 2800 times lower than R-12), superior performance and none of the toxic byproducts problems of f-gasses.

If the world were to switch to hydrocarbons (or other natural refrigerants), DuPont and the other f-gas mega-corporations would no longer be able to price-gouge their customers and would have to compete on a more level playing field (and the world would be a less polluted place). With hundreds of billions of dollars at stake worldwide, it's not too hard to see the decision making processes going on....

Cheers

John

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so.......is 1992 model category as a series II??? or only 93/94 models are SII???

Nismo32R,

If you have a look around in the engine bay you'll find a data plate somewhere that notes the type of AC gas fitted to your vehicle by the manufacturer. It may even be written on the main data plate.

In any case, HyChill Minus 30 (formerly known as HR12) can be used in either R-12 or R-134a systems with no additional mods.

When switching from R-12 or R-134a to HyChill, it is highly recommended to instruct your AC tech to do a full AC system flush (which naturally requires new lubricant) before charging with HyChill. This is particularly recommended when switching from R-134a, as these systems tend to develop a lot of corrosive crap inside the system which need to be flushed out first for optimum performance and to avoid TX valves from getting blocked.

Even though I'd like to sell people lots of HyChill product, the honest point to make here is AC systems work most reliably if you stick to the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" principle. AC systems can be finnicky things, and the more they get worked on, the higher the chance that a fault will develop later, particularly because these days the general level of technical expertise of AC technicians is lower than it used to be. If it were me, I'd wait until my AC system stops cooling or is loading the engine unacceptably before considering getting any work done on it. Jus' trying to tell it straight.

Hey - your signature says 'Racepace' is best. My cousin (Luke) works there. Do you work there too? If you do then, whoa, it really is a small world!

Cheers

John

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