Drag Racing R32 Gtr

[BK]

Hi. I'm Ben from Alice Springs and I own two GTR's. An R32 and an R33. The R33 has 330kw @ wheels and my R32 has 550kw @ wheels according to the dyno sheets. My questions are mainly aimed at the R32 GTR that I've been drag racing at the new ASID 1/4 here in the NT for the past six months. Okay, the main thing I want to know is why my times suck so much if I apparently have so much power ?

R32 has the following main modifications :

-Fully rebuilt engine with aries pistons, crower rods, N1 rings, N1 oil + water pumps, tomei cams, power fc pro, 800cc injectors, sard fuel pump, trust fuel rail + regulator, hks evc 3, splitfire coilpacks, tein coilovers (not sure what type but the are low and hard)

-Garrett turbo with 1.00 a/r ex housing (looks like could be TA45S), hks external wastegate, trust intercooler, 4 inch exhaust,

-Trust 6 speed dog box, os giken triple plate clutch, look the list goes on and on ....

The car is running around 1.5 - 1.6 bar of boost with M/T ET Street R16-255/50 tyres at around 16 - 20 psi.

My 60 foot best is 1.701, 1/4 best of 11.02 and MPH best of 129.8 with doing a rwd burnout.

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON ? WHAT AM I DOING WRONG ?

Car revs to 8500 as injectors are at 100% at 8800. Using power fc pro lauch control at around 7600 as 8000 + fries the tyres.

I'm starting to think something is really wrong here ? Please any advice from experienced 10 sec or lower GTR racers would be awesome as there is not anyone really seriously modifying GTR's (or any import for that matter) to get real no bullshit info from in the NT.

I need info from people that have actually done this -

What do I have to do to get to at least low 10's/high 9's consistently ? I'm out of ideas as I know I could go for more power but surely that MPH is good for mid 10's at least. Thanks for any help.

BK

[TommO]

How accurate is the dyno up there mate? Your R33 GTR for example... with 320kw@4 in Sydney, I ran 122mph.... 118 mph with 330kw@4 (lookng at your sig), well something ain't right... I ran that MPH when I had 280kw@4 And that was with a 1.8 60FT.

Edited August 31, 2008 by TommO

[2rismo]

550kW is more like 150mph, mate. Something is vastly wrong with the dyno figure or with your car once it gets to the track. Wheel spin plays three-fifths of bugger all difference in mph figures and can sometimes increase the final number so don't look to traction to find your missing horsepower.

If you're lighting up the tyres when you leave the line, lower the rpm's at which you drop the clutch. Play with tyre pressures a little (try dropping the backs to 15psi for the same burnout procedure) and check to make sure that it's not just the rears that are spinning. If it is and assuming you're back in 4WD mode, your transfer case may well be on the way out and not sending much/any of the torque through the front wheels.

Best of luck.

[Angus Smart]

what gear in the trust box are you in while your going over the line?

they are a very close ratio box so this could be causing you problems?

i suspect your changing up to 5th?

Edited August 31, 2008 by Angus Smart

[BK]

The R32 was last dynoed in dec 07 at Tilbrook auto and dyno in Adelaide with M. Donnon tuning the apexi. I don't know how accurate their dyno was at the time, because my R33 v-spec was dynoed there but with a different tuner, made 330kw @ wheels on 1.3 bar before I changed my ignition system. I haven't taken the R33 to the track for a while but feels like even it should be capable of a good 11.5 @ 120mph + now. I'll run the R33 next time and see if I can do better.

Getting back to the R32, with the 6 speed gearbox I am holding onto 4th over the line which is a ratio of 1.178. 5th is 0.920 and 6th is 0.777. I beleive the stock nissan 3rd is 1.302 and 4th is 1.000.

Should I be trying to change to 5th ? I have redlined before the line a couple of times, but sometimes I haven't also.

Also, the transfer case is actually brand new one that went in with the new box and yes all four wheels are lighting up. So I am definently getting front torque.

Edited September 1, 2008 by BK

[2rismo]

There's 220kW difference between the 33 and 32 and you're right that the 33 should run easy 120+mph but 220kW does not equal 9mph. Your 32 doesn't make the power you've been told it does or it makes it so painfully late in the rev range that you can't get the most out of the combo. 20+ mph can't be explained away in gear ratios.

[GTRsean]

Your 60ft time should be better than that! I was getting 1.75 60ft on cheap nexen rubber on stock wheels.

Suspension setup plays a part, you setup may be too hard....

Stock suspension works really well (weight transfer) and a bit of positive camber on the back, so that when she squats on launch the camber is neutral and you use full face of the tyre.

[BK]

I'll post the R32 dyno sheet soon so everyone can have a look at the curve. I think it does make the power too late in the rev range after having a comparison against my R33.

[rev210]

Perhaps you aren't making 550rwkw at the track.

Basically that that setup isn't going to have 737 rwhp worth of fuel support. Others may like to comment but, a single in-tank drop in Sard fuel pump and 800cc injectors won't really support 550rwkw. For peice of mind you would really want a more hardcore fuel delivery setup especially if you want to give it some race time.

It would be nice to run a fuel delivery capable of 1000hp worth of fuel ideally at those power levels for peice of mind, allows some headroom for partial injector blockages over time etc... You are looking at a bling mini oil refinery in your boot

[R.I.P.S NZ]

I've had a car come here with over 700whp and the owner couldn't get it even into the 13s it was soooooo laggy and low on torque off the line.

We added a 75hp NOS kit to give it some response and torque, checked the tune/power etc on the dyno and it was just over 550wkw, with shit tyres and a real bad 60ft I drove it to 10s first time out.

You "may" have your 550wkw at some point but if its laggy as hell you may not be able to do much better than you are now.

If you get some good tyres on it you might find you'll bog due to lack of torque.

Good luck mate and if all else fails get some squeeze on it.

Rob

[DRIFTER]

my sard 280 lph pump maxed out at about 350rwkw.

[BK]

Ok guys. Went out to last meeting and finally cracked the 10's. 2nd run was a 10.8 @ 129.8 mph (hit the rev limiter in 3rd) and 6th run was 10.7 @ 125.9 mph. Best 60' was 1.63 and 102 mph half track. All done 1st - 4th only with the six speed. I finally worked out how to clutchless shift the dog box smoothly and accurately. This turbo has also been confirmed as an HKS T51S full kit with a 1.00 a/r exhaust so I think there should be more in this combo left. Still, it's the fastest GTR and street legal car around here.

[SCOOP]

Ok guys. Went out to last meeting and finally cracked the 10's. 2nd run was a 10.8 @ 129.8 mph (hit the rev limiter in 3rd) and 6th run was 10.7 @ 125.9 mph. Best 60' was 1.63 and 102 mph half track. All done 1st - 4th only with the six speed. I finally worked out how to clutchless shift the dog box smoothly and accurately. This turbo has also been confirmed as an HKS T51S full kit with a 1.00 a/r exhaust so I think there should be more in this combo left. Still, it's the fastest GTR and street legal car around here.

Congrats on the 10sec mate!!

[BK]

OK have just completed my rebuild on my busted R32 box from May last year with a new OS giken gearset and input shaft. Bloody not cheap, $1070 for the input alone! The uprated synchros were reasonable at around $900. Will be swapping it into the R32 to give the Trust six speed a rest and a chance to inspect and repair any wearing dogs. My 60+ year old Dad also drives it on the street at the moment because I still haven't met the ANDRA sub 10.99 regulations yet, so I'll be racing the R33 until then.

I've just recently purchased another OS giken box from the forum to put into the R33 and found out some interesting things that I haven't heard mentioned before.

For a start, is anyone aware that there once was an OS giken gearset that suited the older style synchros ? I found that out recently when comparing my newly rebuilt OS with the one I just purchased. The new set used the updated synchro parts but the old OS box had exactly the same synchros as an R32 box. Also that the R33 and R32 transfer cases are different on the speed sensor pickup side. You can't just change the speed sensor either as the gear drives are different. I had to use my R33 transfer with the R33 and the R32 transfer with the R32. I was always under the impression R32/R33 transfers were identical but they're not.

Anyway hopefully my R33 can crack a mid 11 this weekend at our opening points meeting in full street trim until I can finally bring the R32 back to gun for 9's on 2 bar.

[BK]

2rismo said:

550kW is more like 150mph, mate. Something is vastly wrong with the dyno figure or with your car once it gets to the track. Wheel spin plays three-fifths of bugger all difference in mph figures and can sometimes increase the final number so don't look to traction to find your missing horsepower.

If you're lighting up the tyres when you leave the line, lower the rpm's at which you drop the clutch. Play with tyre pressures a little (try dropping the backs to 15psi for the same burnout procedure) and check to make sure that it's not just the rears that are spinning. If it is and assuming you're back in 4WD mode, your transfer case may well be on the way out and not sending much/any of the torque through the front wheels.

Best of luck.

Found the launch problem finally. Tranfer's in excellent condition but Front diff is totally rooted. Put a brand new OS giken R3C and the new rebulit OS box thinking this funny noise was box or clutch related. With the screaming external gate and dog box in there I couldn't pick it up, but now everythings quiet with the synchro box and new clutch it was obvious. Pulled the shafts out and front diff cover off, and my old man of 45+ years as a senior mechanic and diesel fitter said he'd never seen a diff that stuffed. He's an absolute genius with these GTRs and done all my internal gearbox assemblies - 2 x OS, 1 x stock, 1 x Trust dog

Car is getting D-jetro, 1000cc injectors and 2 x Bosch 044s in 2 weeks so we will see the real figure of this car soon.

[BK]

Wow 9.5 years since I've posted in this, and still haven't had any luck with the TH1 BNR32. Car has been in development hell for nearly 10 years now. The saga continues. A lot has happened since.

 

2010

Car got D jetro, 1000cc injectors and dual 044 with nismo in tank. 1.8bar Made 450kw on 98 and 500ish on vp109 at Willal racing SA Mainline dyno with Compression at 120psi (very decompressed) across board, with motor assembled by Jakes performance ACT.

Car grenades Trust dog box on 3rd gear burnout with MT ET streets at Drags.

2011

Fit OS giken 5 speed. Car has lean out (Nismo lift fuel pump) and blows spark plug tips off and destroys 2.6 by Jakes performance, destroying stock harmonic balancer, killing Arias pistons, splits block and cracks crankshaft in about four places. All in the bin.

2012

Get a CP piston forged 2.6, Crower billet rods with new block assembled by us 520+kw on 98ron. Compression at 155-160psi with 8.5:1 pistons. Kills OS giken R3C triple clutch - warped steel floating disc plates in one drag meeting.

2016

New Nismo Surge tank lift pump dies again, starves 044s, leans motor out again, cracks rings and loses compression. Motor out again.

2018

New 86.5mm Nitto 2.8 kit fitted into the new block, Nitto oil pump fitted. Quaife front and rear diffs installed. Haltech Elite 2500 with 4 bar MAP installed with fuel pressure feedback added and wired in. Every Whiteline bush in catalogue, Whiteline f/r swaybars and new Tein Monoflex coilovers with 7kg f/r springs installed. Godzilla Motorsport R35 coilpack upgrade with NGK R7436-8 racing plugs installed gapped to 0.8mm. NTK afrm2 wideband installed and wired into Haltech Elite 2500. Still running existing big head with unknown spec large lift cams, Tomei type B 9500rpm valve springs, OS giken 5 speed, ATS carbon triple plate, Trust 100mm intercooler, 1000cc injectors, 2 x Bosch 044 pump from 5 litre surge tank, 1 x 044 in tank to replace shitty nismo, Trust dual entry rail with SX fuel reg, twin braided lines from 044s to rail, HKS manifold, full 4" system and HKS T51S 1.00 a/r at 1.9bar. Ready for Red centre nats in September 2018, as soon as can get a tune done in last week of August. Start running engine in with wideband and knock long term trim correction. Does 500km, car running beautifully on 98ron, limited to 22psi on run in. Ready to tune Sat. 1st Sept. 2018.

Take car for final drive on mineral run in oil Aug. 31 ready to swap to synthetic oil for tune next day. Develops knock on final drive home. Look at data log on Haltech. Massive detonation event recorded at 4500rpm. Pull motor down, spun main bearing on #1, Nitto crankshaft damaged after 580km. No evidence of oil starvation. Looks like the big knock that happened transmitted into the main bearings. Why the detonation all of a sudden ?

Also the week of classic outback rally. Coincidentally 10+ cars get failed engines. Traced to Puma 98ron contamination with opal 91ron at station. Class action against Puma started by rally competitors. Only in Alice Springs would a fuel contamination stuff up that badly occur.

Guess where I fuelled up mid that week ?

Motor currently at CRD getting 2nd 2.8 stroker in 12 months, this time at 87mm. Should get it back any week now. Start all over again.

[KiwiRS4T]

Wow a GTR living up to its reputation as a money pit! Better luck with your new build. Where to first...back to the drag strip?

[BK]

Look I'll be back to the strip sometime around June / July if everything goes well. Will be making sure car is well and truly sorted before I even think about strip. CRD want me to send the car over to them to tune the car after we get the motor back from them and in the car, but I think I will trailer it over to Sydney - wayyyy cheaper. Plus want to be there when they are doing it.

I think I'll be sticking with the HKS T51S as I've proven it can make power, but has never had a clean run down the strip after screwing the power up past 450kw at wheels. Something has always gone wrong.

[mr_rbman]

I realise you probably can't get pump E85 in Alice but have you considered putting the car on E85 from a drum?!?

The cost would surely be outweighed by the improved reliability fro starters.....?!?!

[BK]

yeah but E85 goes off pretty quick as it is highly hydroscopic compared to unleaded, which means storing for long periods of time is not possible. Lots of moisture and the octane on E85 is shot. If I was going to get it in drums a 205L would be the go, and I'd end up wasting most of it as the car is not a daily drive. Believe it or not as soon as Summer hits now it is quite humid here these days so this time of year the fuel will not last. Not a problem in April to September when our humidity is no more that 25% with no rain for 200+ days though.

Not to mention how much bigger the injectors have to be. I run 1000cc Denso, I'd need more like 1300cc or 1700cc IDs. Also running 3 x Bosch 044 pumps, which are apparently only rated at 500 hours use on E85. Then flex sensor, line changes ect.

Nope main tune has to be 98 ron. If I want a second tune on high octane I'll just go back to running high octane race unleaded. Limits to:

Sunoco 260 GT PLUS - 110 RON, 98 MON and 104 AKI (R+M)/2)

VP Fuels MS109 - 107 RON, 99 MON and 103 AKI  (Used to be 109 RON and 105 AKI)

Also Martini 110 possibly, but I know nothing about it.

BP Ultimate 98 for comparison is 98 RON, 88 MON and 93 AKI

Both above race fuels are fully unleaded. Don't have fuel pump, lines or injector compatibility issues then or the need to go flex fuel setup.

In comparison E85 is-

United race blend E85 - 105 RON, 97 MON - 101 AKI

VP fuels X85 - 115 RON, 95 MON - 105 AKI

As you can see the two race unleaded fuels are actually superior to the United E85 as the AKI (anti knock index, also what Americans quote as their octane number) is higher. This is the most overlooked rating of a fuel (rather than just research octane or RON most people quote) and provides the actual resistance to knock. This is the real rating that should be used for judging detonation safety at high boost levels, and allowing more ignition timing advance at the same comparable boost to make more power safely. These fuels provide comparable or better E85 power levels with normal unleaded fuel usage. Only the VP fuels E85 (X85) is better (just) than the unleaded race fuels and would be my choice if I was to ship and use E85.

Only downfall to the Race unleaded is price, at between $11 - $16 / litre. Definitely competition use only at that price.