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[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos


Lithium

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On 7/19/2016 at 8:29 PM, HarrisRacing said:

Do you mind sharing which cams and what the cam gear settings are?

I would appreciate it greatly.

Sorry I don't know. I'll ask my mechanic for you. Not sure if he will tell me or not.

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Sorry I don't know. I'll ask my mechanic for you. Not sure if he will tell me or not.

Just tell him I'm in the US and built and tuned my own car. I'm just looking to see what the strokers like for cam timing. No competition or anything just trying to save some time on the next dyno day.

PM with the info would be awesome.

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My S400sx-e 76mm comp. wheel finally arrived.

20160718_135258_zpskv1r7pxx.jpg

I cannot wait to see what it will do. It's going on a 2jz. I was a bit bummed it didn't have the nicer compressor housing with the speed sensor and nicer outlet. But all good otherwise.

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Hi all!   I've not really been active on this forum for some time and although I lurk in to read bits and pieces of interest I don't really think of this as a forum I'm part of but I once was and I did start this thread a good 6 years ago with idea that a potential game changer for people playing with Skylines was on the horizon and it'd be worth discussing or looking into.... I've been privy to lots of opinions and data from what other people have done but beyond thrashing around a mates Toyota GT86 with an EFR6758 (which isn't THAT adventurous a combination) and have forwarded on a certain amount into this thread in the years past but I'd not personally been in a solid EFR setup car, let alone a Skyline so there was never really much point me adding anything here but after this weekend's activities a little birdy has been in my ear that I should really give my 2c - so here it is :)

I am a very cautious kind of guy, I don't like overstating things and I don't like setting expectations unrealistically high - people who know me well will know that when discussing hypothetical setups and expected results I separate what I think is actually possible and what I think is a reasonable expectation, too often I see people evangelizing about the latest greatest thing they've heard of with no real data and overstated views on how they think their suggestion will perform compared to others and it surmounts to them convincing people into something that doesn't really do as well versus other alternatives as it could have and potentially have cost a lot of money or effort for little reward.  I don't ever want to be that guy, but still I clearly laid on pretty thick that I suspected these things could be a bit of a game changer for GTR tuning and until this weekend I've never really been too sure of exactly how much of a valid call that was.

So, this weekend I ended up in Sydney and caught up with a bunch of stout characters with stout cars in the interest of combination ethanol consumption with ethanol consumption (and a bit of talking crap and eating meat thrown in there) and one of the guys who showed up was Reaper from this forum - has an absolutely immaculate R34 GTR with a stock bottom end RB26 with VCam and an EFR8374 with the 1.05a/r hotside on a Full-Race big tube manifold, and somewhere during the day he generously gave me the chance to go for a spin around the block in his creation.  

I have to say, I *not* a fan of stock stroke RB26s... at least in GTRs, every single one I've been in seem uninterested in doing much under 4000+rpm and even above there often are half convincing by my tastes - at least when in combination with a heavy (for the displacement) 4WD car.  When I jumped in the car I had already cut some slack for the displacement of Reaper's car when combined with the fact it has a rather larger 79lb/min capable turbo on it when combined with the fact there were 3 decent size lads in the car - anything that happened next would be considered as "... for a stock stroke RB26 ..." but it turns out that wasn't necessary at all.

We jumped in the car and cruised off, and as the revs came up in second gear Reaper decided to snap open the throttle - not 100% sure what rpm it was at but it wasn't huge, very much in the rev range that with a conventional twin HKS GT2530/Garrett GT2860R-5s setup would result in a louder exhaust note and a gradual reverse-bungy build up as she winds up and buggers off...  but that is not what happened.  With 3 people in a well set up car on good tyres and a piddly wee 2.6 the damn thing snapped open the gate, squatted, scrabbled for traction and screamed off up the road and almost immediately ran out of 2nd gear, then 3rd gear etc.   I was very much left going - wtf just happened??

This set the tone for the rest of the happy lap in the car, I honestly would have believed it had a stroker kit on it or something of the type.  The thing just stood up SO fast.   I've never been in a stock stroke RB26 setup that stands up like that, the only RB28 I've been in (sorry Piggaz) was a VERY heavily optimised setup, possibly the best -5s setup I know of and this stock bottom end thing is a different level.  I've been in RB30 setups even making less power than this (ie, less turbo) which don't stand up on boost like this, perhaps more natural torque at lower rpm but in terms of the turbo coming on song and letting the car gtfo - nope.   I have no doubt that VCam and the rest of the coin Reaper has invested in his car all contribute to the epic outcome, but realistically I very much doubt it would be quite as spastic as it is without the EFR on the side of it... the whole experience embodies what people have told me about how these things behave and I've forwarded on some of these testimonials but have never been able to give my own.  I have to say:

Believe the hype.  Its all real.  These things are the shit.

It is epic how fast they respond to a stab on the throttle, even from surprisingly low rpm - and one of the most ridiculous things that happening during our little joy ride was when he loaded it up in 3rd gear going up a hill.... having an external wastegate really helps get an idea of when a turbo is making "good boost".   We had ~28psi dialled up for this pleasant outing, and as we approached a hill in 3rd gear at quite low rpm Reaper stood on the throttle and let it build boost.  This was obviously one of the "best case scenario" type turbo spool things, and naturally won't represent the typical boost threshold you'd see on a dyno or flooring it on the flat in a lower gear BUT the damn thing opened gate at just over 3000rpm.  This is an RB26 engine with an 800hp capable turbo opening gate at over 20psi at just over 3000rpm.  Seriously.

I remember having a discussion in and away from this thread about the idea of RB30+ engines with EFRs in GTRs etc and how amazing they'd be but I don't think I really got quite how mental it would be.  I'm happy to know people are starting to embrace these turbos on GTRs, let alone with VCam.   The world is a better place for it.   Its a crying shame that dyno results don't seem to capture the magic of what these turbos are like to experience, and I know that reading other peoples testimonials don't do it justice but if there is any evidence for anyone reading this thread who may be at a crossroads in turbo choices etc and wondering who to believe, and thinking Precisions etc seem practically as good (or better) for less money.... just look at the amount of long time GTR owners (including some who were anti-single turbos) in this thread who have gone out immediately after experiencing an EFR first hand and ordered their own.  

Ignore the fact that Precisions make more power per mm of compressor inducer, or the fact that the EFRs seem to run larger turbines for a power level, or the fact that Holsets and Hypergears seem to make dyno plots which look like they stand up really early when driven against a dyno in a pull - there are lots of things out there which make it seem like there are other things which may be able to compete with EFRs for similar or less money in terms of power and response, but if there are... I've not come across it yet and suspect if it is there, then if EFRs seem too expensive then the other option is not worth thinking about,

Anyway, I promised I'd say something and it's probably far too long and boring for most people to read - but it's all there, I've not had such a rave about these things before saying they're "that good" like this because I've not had enough data or experience to feel like it's justified... but here it is, so I hope it's worth something to anyone reading through and wondering.  If still in doubt, you just have to try and find someone who has an EFR on their car and go for a ride or a drive if its an option.

Thanks heaps for the ride, Reaper - bloody awesome car you've built there, and was good to meet you and catch up again with the others again after too long a gap from visiting Sydney.   Until next time!

Edited by Lithium
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26 minutes ago, NISR32.5 said:

Haha must have been Piggaz in your ear.....

He made me do this

More like Dan was in my ear years ago about this. I was however in the back seat giggling lol

 

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I totally agree. Can't wait to make the move to E85 and get more out of mine. And the Vcam is on the horizon for sure...

I want to note that I removed Anti-lag from my Hatlech tune. I have replaced it with a simple rev-limit table that is set as mph vs. throttle position. I have it set to 5200 rpms under 2 mph at 90% and above throttle. Why is this relevant to this "EFR TURBOS" conversation? Because in 2 seconds (yes two) of boucing off the 5200 rpms launching rev limiter alone (with no anti-lag), my EFR 8374 will make 14 psi boost. So yeah...no anti-lag needed to spool my car for launches! It will make full boost if I just let it bounce a few more seconds.

 

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7 hours ago, HarrisRacing said:

I totally agree. Can't wait to make the move to E85 and get more out of mine. And the Vcam is on the horizon for sure...

I want to note that I removed Anti-lag from my Hatlech tune. I have replaced it with a simple rev-limit table that is set as mph vs. throttle position. I have it set to 5200 rpms under 2 mph at 90% and above throttle. Why is this relevant to this "EFR TURBOS" conversation? Because in 2 seconds (yes two) of boucing off the 5200 rpms launching rev limiter alone (with no anti-lag), my EFR 8374 will make 14 psi boost. So yeah...no anti-lag needed to spool my car for launches! It will make full boost if I just let it bounce a few more seconds.

 

I would be interested in the EGTs without load, if your car is making 1 bar without load with a turbo that big I would he questioning the temperatures and especially the timing.

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I would be interested in the EGTs without load, if your car is making 1 bar without load with a turbo that big I would he questioning the temperatures and especially the timing.


Maybe it's because it is a soft cut rev limit? I'll check tonight to see if it's cutting fuel and/or ignition on soft cut.
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15 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

I would be interested in the EGTs without load, if your car is making 1 bar without load with a turbo that big I would he questioning the temperatures and especially the timing.

90%+ throttle definitely counts as load - even if it isn't pulling the car around

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Yep checked. Ignition soft cut (not fuel) so it's probably acting as antilag from cutting ignition on every other cylinder and then sparking the excess fuel next go round. But I'm not pulling any timing (which is huge on antilag)

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That alone is enough to make me consider an EFR, even if the GTX is 'similar' in the range I have mine.

If the wheels really are that light, and the transient response really is as amazing, it stands to reason that anti-lag would be far 'easier' to activate.
Makes you wonder what'd happen on the limiter under load though :O

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20 minutes ago, HarrisRacing said:

Yep checked. Ignition soft cut (not fuel) so it's probably acting as antilag from cutting ignition on every other cylinder and then sparking the excess fuel next go round. But I'm not pulling any timing (which is huge on antilag)

yeah if you're cutting only ignition that would do it... when you said you reved your car to 5200rpm and it was making 1 bar I was a bit puzzled.

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2 hours ago, Nismo 3.2ish said:

 

Glad you liked it Pete!

If anyone is interested the aforementioned setup will be for sale shortly as I have decided to build a 3.2 and upsize the turbo accordingly :)

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7 minutes ago, reaper said:

Glad you liked it Pete!

If anyone is interested the aforementioned setup will be for sale shortly as I have decided to build a 3.2 and upsize the turbo accordingly :)


Worgy approves this message.

dog-with-bone.jpg

PS. That has been pretty much my dream GTR engine spec for years, now.... assuming you mean EFR9180.  I am very excited to hear how you go with it!

Edited by Lithium
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Hard to believe how long ago it was when you started this thread Dan, it was you and Colin talking about these turbos that made me order one over a TO4Z....even if it did take 9.5 months to receive it! I ending up with serial number 13 turbo so it was the first one in NZ and one of the first on this side of the world. With no data on what sized one to pick I took a gamble on a 8374 .92 IWG turbo to go on my RB30. As I have posted in the past it has incredible response and the data sheets just don't show what it does. In hindsight the .92 is too small for the 3ltr and I have found a 1.05 to go on it (which I will do in the future). Now after having it on the car for 5 years I certainly wouldn't consider anything else.

So to those asking are they really that good and worth spending the big money on? Hell yes!

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