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[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos


Lithium

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7 hours ago, Kinkstaah said:

Honestly a GTX isnt even remotely similar to an EFR. They are next level shit! Ive Driven Petes 6266 and an 8374 and throttle response and transient response arent even comparable man it is THAT much better! I thought my GTX was good & while it was i then moved onto a HTA and that was alot better than the GTX i think the precision was very much the same as the HTA but EFR chews them all up and spits them out! As Johnny said a normal shift feels like a sequential box it really hits that hard again when you swap cogs. ?

 

 That alone is enough to make me consider an EFR, even if the GTX is 'similar' in the range I have mine.

If the wheels really are that light, and the transient response really is as amazing, it stands to reason that anti-lag would be far 'easier' to activate.
Makes you wonder what'd happen on the limiter under load though :O

 

Edited by Mick_o
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Hi all!   I've not really been active on this forum for some time and although I lurk in to read bits and pieces of interest I don't really think of this as a forum I'm part of but I once was and I did start this thread a good 6 years ago with idea that a potential game changer for people playing with Skylines was on the horizon and it'd be worth discussing or looking into.... I've been privy to lots of opinions and data from what other people have done but beyond thrashing around a mates Toyota GT86 with an EFR6758 (which isn't THAT adventurous a combination) and have forwarded on a certain amount into this thread in the years past but I'd not personally been in a solid EFR setup car, let alone a Skyline so there was never really much point me adding anything here but after this weekend's activities a little birdy has been in my ear that I should really give my 2c - so here it is [emoji4]

I am a very cautious kind of guy, I don't like overstating things and I don't like setting expectations unrealistically high - people who know me well will know that when discussing hypothetical setups and expected results I separate what I think is actually possible and what I think is a reasonable expectation, too often I see people evangelizing about the latest greatest thing they've heard of with no real data and overstated views on how they think their suggestion will perform compared to others and it surmounts to them convincing people into something that doesn't really do as well versus other alternatives as it could have and potentially have cost a lot of money or effort for little reward.  I don't ever want to be that guy, but still I clearly laid on pretty thick that I suspected these things could be a bit of a game changer for GTR tuning and until this weekend I've never really been too sure of exactly how much of a valid call that was.

So, this weekend I ended up in Sydney and caught up with a bunch of stout characters with stout cars in the interest of combination ethanol consumption with ethanol consumption (and a bit of talking crap and eating meat thrown in there) and one of the guys who showed up was Reaper from this forum - has an absolutely immaculate R34 GTR with a stock bottom end RB26 with VCam and an EFR8374 with the 1.05a/r hotside on a Full-Race big tube manifold, and somewhere during the day he generously gave me the chance to go for a spin around the block in his creation.  

I have to say, I *not* a fan of stock stroke RB26s... at least in GTRs, every single one I've been in seem uninterested in doing much under 4000+rpm and even above there often are half convincing by my tastes - at least when in combination with a heavy (for the displacement) 4WD car.  When I jumped in the car I had already cut some slack for the displacement of Reaper's car when combined with the fact it has a rather larger 79lb/min capable turbo on it when combined with the fact there were 3 decent size lads in the car - anything that happened next would be considered as "... for a stock stroke RB26 ..." but it turns out that wasn't necessary at all.

We jumped in the car and cruised off, and as the revs came up in second gear Reaper decided to snap open the throttle - not 100% sure what rpm it was at but it wasn't huge, very much in the rev range that with a conventional twin HKS GT2530/Garrett GT2860R-5s setup would result in a louder exhaust note and a gradual reverse-bungy build up as she winds up and buggers off...  but that is not what happened.  With 3 people in a well set up car on good tyres and a piddly wee 2.6 the damn thing snapped open the gate, squatted, scrabbled for traction and screamed off up the road and almost immediately ran out of 2nd gear, then 3rd gear etc.   I was very much left going - wtf just happened??

This set the tone for the rest of the happy lap in the car, I honestly would have believed it had a stroker kit on it or something of the type.  The thing just stood up SO fast.   I've never been in a stock stroke RB26 setup that stands up like that, the only RB28 I've been in (sorry Piggaz) was a VERY heavily optimised setup, possibly the best -5s setup I know of and this stock bottom end thing is a different level.  I've been in RB30 setups even making less power than this (ie, less turbo) which don't stand up on boost like this, perhaps more natural torque at lower rpm but in terms of the turbo coming on song and letting the car gtfo - nope.   I have no doubt that VCam and the rest of the coin Reaper has invested in his car all contribute to the epic outcome, but realistically I very much doubt it would be quite as spastic as it is without the EFR on the side of it... the whole experience embodies what people have told me about how these things behave and I've forwarded on some of these testimonials but have never been able to give my own.  I have to say:

Believe the hype.  Its all real.  These things are the shit.

It is epic how fast they respond to a stab on the throttle, even from surprisingly low rpm - and one of the most ridiculous things that happening during our little joy ride was when he loaded it up in 3rd gear going up a hill.... having an external wastegate really helps get an idea of when a turbo is making "good boost".   We had ~28psi dialled up for this pleasant outing, and as we approached a hill in 3rd gear at quite low rpm Reaper stood on the throttle and let it build boost.  This was obviously one of the "best case scenario" type turbo spool things, and naturally won't represent the typical boost threshold you'd see on a dyno or flooring it on the flat in a lower gear BUT the damn thing opened gate at just over 3000rpm.  This is an RB26 engine with an 800hp capable turbo opening gate at over 20psi at just over 3000rpm.  Seriously.

I remember having a discussion in and away from this thread about the idea of RB30+ engines with EFRs in GTRs etc and how amazing they'd be but I don't think I really got quite how mental it would be.  I'm happy to know people are starting to embrace these turbos on GTRs, let alone with VCam.   The world is a better place for it.   Its a crying shame that dyno results don't seem to capture the magic of what these turbos are like to experience, and I know that reading other peoples testimonials don't do it justice but if there is any evidence for anyone reading this thread who may be at a crossroads in turbo choices etc and wondering who to believe, and thinking Precisions etc seem practically as good (or better) for less money.... just look at the amount of long time GTR owners (including some who were anti-single turbos) in this thread who have gone out immediately after experiencing an EFR first hand and ordered their own.  

Ignore the fact that Precisions make more power per mm of compressor inducer, or the fact that the EFRs seem to run larger turbines for a power level, or the fact that Holsets and Hypergears seem to make dyno plots which look like they stand up really early when driven against a dyno in a pull - there are lots of things out there which make it seem like there are other things which may be able to compete with EFRs for similar or less money in terms of power and response, but if there are... I've not come across it yet and suspect if it is there, then if EFRs seem too expensive then the other option is not worth thinking about,

Anyway, I promised I'd say something and it's probably far too long and boring for most people to read - but it's all there, I've not had such a rave about these things before saying they're "that good" like this because I've not had enough data or experience to feel like it's justified... but here it is, so I hope it's worth something to anyone reading through and wondering.  If still in doubt, you just have to try and find someone who has an EFR on their car and go for a ride or a drive if its an option.

Thanks heaps for the ride, Reaper - bloody awesome car you've built there, and was good to meet you and catch up again with the others again after too long a gap from visiting Sydney.   Until next time!


Love to see some logs of this 2.6L sounds awesome with 20psi at 3k from 3rd gear pull!

My 2.7 with -5's on 98ron does 19psi @ 3680 in 4th and I'm stoked with that for what it is.

just last night I noticed my IAT sensor had worked it's way lose for the second time now so boost pressure was escaping and also had a vacuum hose pulled off my charcoal canister probably from engine moving.
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I can't remember if I posted my E85 results. Anyway, here it is, just to echo the praise for the EFRs:

7670 T4 1.05 on my Evo V.

~250kw at 4000rpm...

670nm of torque at a bit over 4000rpm.

It goes ok haha

 

 

mms_img1937120116.jpg

Edited by Tom Tucker
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Such a stout result Tom! That was literally the result i had envisaged for my car when/if i ever build my 2.3L. I will have mivec on my side so be interesting to see how that helps. What cams you running mate? You're 9.5:1 compression ratio too? 

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22 minutes ago, Mick_o said:

Such a stout result Tom! That was literally the result i had envisaged for my car when/if i ever build my 2.3L. I will have mivec on my side so be interesting to see how that helps. What cams you running mate? You're 9.5:1 compression ratio too? 

Hey Mick,

Yeah 9:5:1. Kelford 272

Yours will be epic with Mivec

 

Edited by Tom Tucker
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13 hours ago, mr skidz said:


Love to see some logs of this 2.6L sounds awesome with 20psi at 3k from 3rd gear pull!

My 2.7 with -5's on 98ron does 19psi @ 3680 in 4th and I'm stoked with that for what it is.

just last night I noticed my IAT sensor had worked it's way lose for the second time now so boost pressure was escaping and also had a vacuum hose pulled off my charcoal canister probably from engine moving.

Bare in mind that 3rd gear pulll was 3 up going up a hill from low rpm, it was pretty heavily loaded and probably comparable with a typical 4th gear pull.  It was much much better than I expected, but fwiw I'd not have said it would do it if it didn't - I realise a log would be a bit more precise, but basically when you are in a car running 28psi and its hard to differentiate between the tacho getting past 3000rpm and the gate opening you know its not shabby.  I have to admit semi-regretting not recording that but I was mostly being selfish and just enjoying the ride, it is flat out one of the most impressive GTR engine performances I've experienced and DEFINITELY the best from anything with under 3litres of displacement.

3700ish for 19psi is good going for -5s! Nice :)

 

 

Edited by Lithium
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After tightening my temperature sensor up AGAIN and re fitting a loose vacuum hose as i ran out of zip ties..lol

I immediately logged my next ride and I thought I'd have a look at them last night out of curiosity and my response was a bit better again as expected but definitely not 28psi at 3k like the EVO! :(

This log is from a 10min short drive to work and I only had a flat Road and one 3rd gear pull.
Throttle went 100% @ 2900 rpm and just for comparison purposes I'll upload them all for anyone who wants to compare there logs to mine.

Axis used are:
throttle cruise at 0psi to wide open throttle starting at 2900rpm right up to 20psi

*note I'm still on 98 ron and timing is very Conservative as you can imagine.

0psi
74bc857ba3067831a2004bde8b5faec1.jpg
7psiec6be7099fc7bf22ae44bd1aee5878d7.jpg
14.7
e80846493c6c679d28879020d0d154cd.jpg
20psi
76be37de117ba8e0b383d6cbce0f9ad4.jpg


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Fair point too, its a crying shame there are no straight up comparisons between setups where people have upgraded from -5s/whatever to an EFR in the thread - obviously having a different setup (not just turbo) makes the comparison thing a bit difficult as well.  

@reaper - If there was a chance do you reckon sometime you are out lurking in the monster reckon you could try get a log or someone to take a pic of the dash showing how much boost you can build by 3500rpm with the 26 similar to what you did with me and Paul this weekend?  Might blow some minds.

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4 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Fair point too, its a crying shame there are no straight up comparisons between setups where people have upgraded from -5s/whatever to an EFR in the thread - obviously having a different setup (not just turbo) makes the comparison thing a bit difficult as well.  

@reaper - If there was a chance do you reckon sometime you are out lurking in the monster reckon you could try get a log or someone to take a pic of the dash showing how much boost you can build by 3500rpm with the 26 similar to what you did with me and Paul this weekend?  Might blow some minds.

Matty from WA did. Shame he doesn't post much anymore.

5-700 earlier boost threshold, back on pipe in 1/3rd the time (Motec logs) compared to the -5's. Smashed it everywhere. This was on a 3.0. Literally take -5's off and bolt 8374 into place with the necessary changes made to make it work.

Even driving Nicks car "untuned", the 8374 with the "laggy 1.05 rear"  belted in every - single - way. Boost threshold - yep.

Transient - yep.

low end grunt - yep.

top end power - yep.

Should have reaults in the next few days.

As been said a million times, the real world driving is what impresses the most and what the dyno doesn't show.

 

 

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I got Harrisracing to post a similar log a few pages back though it was a 3-4 change. Maybe he could just jump in the car and do a similar to really settle this debate for once and for all. My money would be on the EFR spankerating over what the -5's do.

Otherwise sometime this decade i'll do it on mine... 3rd gear 3000rpm 100% throttle flat road pull turbo comparison ftw?

@HarrisRacing since tagging is a thing we do on forums now apparently? :P

 

On 29/05/2016 at 10:24 AM, HarrisRacing said:

Here is the data for the gear change from 3rd to 4th. Sorry I'm logging ALL channels now so resolution isn't as good as it could be.

My brother also short shifted because the tachometer is off a good bit.

post-136202-0-00874400-1464481438_thumb.

post-136202-0-49867600-1464481445_thumb.

post-136202-0-91395700-1464481453_thumb.

 

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