Lets Talk Water Meth Injection

[jet_r31]

http://www.rbracing-...rinjection.html

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/

http://www.ausrotary...hp?f=16&t=38929

Edited March 28, 2012 by jet_r31

[zebra]

I'm after wmi to remove heat soak from the intake

Any extra power if a bonus

When I get a kit I'll be interested to see if I pick up and power. Using the standard ecu right now and with the iat sensor in the plenum hopefully it will ad a little timing and maybe run a little leaner than 10:1

Will report back when it all happens (don't hold your breath lol)

[Super Drager]

I ran 50% water and 50% methanol. 2L of mix lasted about a tank of fuel without much thrashing.

Nope. Its actually the water that increases the octane of the fuel. Octane is the amount of retardant in the fuel. The water "gets in the way" and makes it harder to light under extreme pressures, and burn slower. You want your fuel to burn slow, not fast. The longer the fuel is burning for the longer it is pushing on the piston. This means more torque.

The methanol drops the temps a bucket load - Mist some over your hand with a spray bottle and tell me how cold it is.

The combustible properties of the methanol are not intentionally used.

Ahhh cheers for that, i have no idea why i had it the wrong way around in my mind, but very useful info in any case. I know atleast one guy on the 300zx forums swears by it, made 540rwhp with gt2860-5's and eliminated the IC completely.

[TiTAN]

I have a snow performance stage 2 kit with the 2.5Gal tank and the solenoid upgrade (my tank and pump are mounted in the boot)

i havent had any issues with it, as a bonus the tuner said it takes a surprisingly large amount of fuel out of the map running the snow performance premix (49/51%)

mine comes on at 8psi and is on full at 25psi, running 9.3:1 comp and 394kw (full specs in the for sale link in my signature)

the tuner did say it was ingition limited, not knock limited. the mix with that much boost and water/meth mix in the cyl is blowing out the spark when you try to advance the timing more.

[jet_r31]

I would never go for a "on \ off" type switch setup.

Progressive is where it is at.

See that depends, whether the car is auto or manual and how big the ignition system is...sometimes you woudn't even notice the difference..

I ran pre-turbo, a hobbs, a couple of lpg solenoids a falconn radiator overflow header tank and a SUE air/water atomiser.

Car made 316rwkw on 16psi through a auto and 3500rpm converter on 98

with 700cc of water it made 340 ish on 16psi

R31, stock bottom end rebuilt Rb30, baby 220 @.50 cam, Gt4294, T6 .91 exhaust, full boost 4250rpm on 23, 4500rpm to 26psi.

370 rwkw on 23psi on 98

370rwkw on 19psi on 98 with water-133mph traps

470rwkw on 26psi on 98 and water

on 440rwkw the car. ran 140.89 mph running over the trap at 6900rpm(it made peak power at 6500rpm, needed a 28 inch tall tyre)

This is all in street trim, full exhaust, i ran 26psi all the time on street, so probally 143mph ish traps..

I didn't run out of ignition or anything, i never ran it lean(always 11.5 up top) I WAS TYRE LIMITED..roflmao , i sorted that out and then blew it up due to not replacing the original alternator, which cut the 2 fuel pumps out

after 2.5 yrs with a lot of it daily driving (my wife drove it into the city for work everyday before we had kids) i tore down the motor and it was like brand new, the bottom end bearings where perfect, so where 5 pistons, my mate went and used them again..lol

one just had a cracked ringland.

Motor got the f**k thrashed out of it for that time, drove it to melb and back aswell, everytime i went in it, i did at least 120mph in it..lol, went through as set of drag radials in 3 ish days just from roll ons..

Did my brothers gemini, he only has a baby 210@50 thou cam and a 3082 with internal gate, it doesn't rev hard, with 26psi it makes 250 rwkw, at 6000rpm ish had gone 126 ish mph in street trim and he injects 170ml.

before that it blew headgaskets and general shit..now its sweet and holds the head on to. With that car at the time we where boost limited due to internal gate issues. Now have much bigger cam and 4 psi more should

go upper 200-300rwkw on 30psi.

water injection..i love it, have to fit it to everything lol

cheers

darren

Edited March 28, 2012 by jet_r31

[GTScotT]

Thanks Darren was hoping you would add your valuable input.

Cant wait to get mine kicking. Am also feeling a lot gamer to try a more exotic turbo with more serious boost levels.

[GTScotT]

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=436

"I didn't notice the injected water (water 28%-30% of fuel) changing the wideband AFR readings

These talks of 12.5 AFR being indicated as 10:1 on the wideband O2 seem being bogus!

The EGT sensor is in one of the exhaust runners - as close to the head as possible (about 1 inch from the head).

My EGT were around 1200F (~ 650C) at 10 psi, 7500 engine rpm.

The intake air temperature sensor is in the intake manifold just in front of the runner of one on the cylinders (it measures the temperature of the air just before mixing with the fuel).

The intake air temperature at cruising on the dyno was 130F (~ 55C).

With water injection turned off at 10 psi of boost the air temperature was raising under boost to over 260F (over 130C).

With the water injection on the intake temperature raised only to 160F (~ 71C)

The ignition timing at 10 psi boost/7500 rpm was about 25-26 degrees advance

My power went up from 100 hp at the wheels (the stock power of a '94 Miata) to 190 hp at the wheels with the current setup (stock engine, never opened, 104K miles on it). "

A quote from a member on the Aquamist forums !!

[TiTAN]

A quote from a member on the Aquamist forums !!

you didnt copy the part where he says he is only injecting water, ofcourse that wont change the AFR at all. you have to have the meth in there to do that.

[rob82]

LAWL well Im at work, so I cant divulge into massive detail.

I have just bought a Snow Performance kit, which I have seen a couple of other members run, and paid about $470 delivered. Its got a digital controller that can plot water volume relative to boost, and has start/end point adjustments so you can configure your car to run it on high boost only or whatever else you want to do.

Aquamist systems seem more popular in the US and are fitted to all the cars in the european rally championship. I dont know much about those kits other than they have the brand name in the market.

Water more or less quenches the heat in the boost charge and turns into steam when it does so. Steam ends up acting like boost and increases your dynamic compression ration. More or less you will end up with double the cooling effort of a good quality FMIC (or better) and will be able to put more boost and timing into the mix without detonation. I am doing this as a replacement to E85 as I want to retain my 98 setup. I will be running straight demineralised water (no alcohol as I want to keep this perfectly feasible).

Application specific data I have found is that it takes 60*c out of charge temps and 100*c out of EGT's. That would add a massive amount of ping resistance to regular piss 98, without the worry of varying content flex fuel or needing to stock up a bloody CSR E85 drum in your garage. No Jerry cans when you head to the track either. f**k Jerry, I hate that prick.

If set up right I am anticipating it will make reaching the maximum flow from a compressor a lot easier, and will help bring boost on stronger. The cooling effect will stop the 98 going off before its meant to, and the resultant dynamic compression will put more volume through the turbine and in essence bring it on faster and harder (like a high comp motor).

Also, everything post nozzle will be squeaky clean if your motor ever blows you will think you blew a brand new motor by how little carbon build up you will find in the IM and ports

Not sure on how it increases the dynamic compression ratio - most water injection systems will loose power if nothing is changed in the tune.

I think the claims that are made with some of these system are a little ambiguous. How can they compare charge temps before and after water is added as most IAT sensor are located within the manifold.

Unless your engine is severly knock limited then your really not going to gain that much hp - its the same as using higher octane fuel in non knock limited engines.

[jet_r31]

"When i ran a 10.5 @ calder, by the end of the track at top of 3rd gear i had inlet air temps of around 64 degrees c. This was on a friday night where the weather was cold and a track temp of around 21 degrees c.

I have just come back from heathcote where the track temp was 35.2 degrees c, and at the top of third i had inlet air temps of 50 degrees c. This was during the day and was a hot day."

This was on a 3540 Rb30 vl turbo, with boost in the mid 20's i think, pre-turbo and straight water

cheers

darren

[GTScotT]

Not sure on how it increases the dynamic compression ratio - most water injection systems will loose power if nothing is changed in the tune.

Simple science there mate..

When the water vapor hits the cylinder it will turn to steam, steam takes up a lot more volume than its equivalent in water and as it converts it will obviously increase cylinder pressure as it soaks in the heat.

So here's the process: Water quenches heat > turns to steam > steam increases combustion pressure (without the usual downside of added heat for the 'no shit' reason).

Static compression is cylinder pressure when cranking (normal comp test), dynamic compression is the effective compression ratio after you take boost/volume/VE/RPM into account (rocket science).

That being said, its rocket science 'just add water' edition

[DaveO74]

Hey,

A good little explanation in laymans terms of how it all works.

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0707_turp_snow_performance_boost_cooler/viewall.html

[tridentt150v]

http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/topic/306109-my-wmi-install/page__hl__wmi

[GTScotT]

They seemed pretty soft on the tuning side of it. I would have wanted to see jet_r31 type results AKA insane.

Mine should arrive today, ill unbox it Saturday and if I get time will possibly install.

The Snow site recommends an additional solenoid if you are going to boot mount, but the guy from the performance shop I got it at said its just to stop siphoning and not to worry too much unless the nozzle is a lot lower than the bottle (in line). He also said because it will be in the boot and the nozzle at the TB, the hose will probably run through the cabin or under the car, so siphoning wouldn't be an issue.

Can anyone with one of these things installed give me an idea? I was going to get Mick to fab me up a 10L boot mount cell, so it would have a fair amount of gravity pushing down on it.

[DaveO74]

I'm wondering the same thing as I have to go boot mount as well.

Having said that the solenoid is only ~50bux so may be worth it?

Did you just go with the 3 quart tank? I'm tossing up wether to got the 2 gallon jobby but I'm a bit worried about the sloshing around on track days making it run dry intermittently.

Thoughts

[GTScotT]

Im going to design my own sort of tank and get Mick to fab it up (hes a supreme boily)

For now I just ordered the standard stage 2 kit, 3qt tank yeah. Once I do the bigger boot install ill probably get the upgraded solenoid and a low level light yeah.. Like you said for the money, best not to go cheap on it I guess.

Maybe when I design my tank I can get ye ole Mick to make 2, Im intending to mount it on the hump between the rear strut towers.. Yet the R33 has its battery there and the S14 has a nice empty space lol. I'll design it with some sort of baffle in mind to take care of the sloshy sloshy. You wont be able to fully avoid it but putting the low level light in the right spot will tell you when your getting to danger zone.

[DaveO74]

Coolingmist have a fancy boot mount tank that they reckon won't suffer these issues but iirc they have the whole pump assembly attached so I don't think you can just buy the tank.

I'll post a linky later

[GTScotT]

Hmm, but I want a big alloy tank in the back of my car, not a plastic one that doesnt specifically fit where I want it to lol

[Super Drager]

So without some sort of fuel controller, the benefits of methanol injection might be missed. It's possible to run a slightly leaner air/fuel mixture when using methanol than without. This is where the extra power from methanol injection starts to show up. This and the fact that more ignition timing can be applied are attributed to methanol injection's octane increasing effect. In some cases the addition of methanol has allowed ignition timing increases normally only associated with 118 octane, and this is with pump gas. This is because methanol actually burns slower than gasoline. It also has a much cooler flame front. And when combined with water, methanol also helps lower intake temperatures well over 100-degrees Fahrenheit. All of this is good when you're looking for safe horsepower increases

Read more: http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0707_turp_snow_performance_boost_cooler/viewall.html#ixzz1qSjexaq0

So it is the methanol that increases the octane

Edited March 29, 2012 by Super Drager

[SiR_RB]

Do the kits need to be installed by a pro or can anyone with abit of spanner talent put it in.

Also on a gtr where would you put the nozzle?