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Piggaz

Borg Warner EFR Series Turbo's V 2.0

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12 hours ago, gixer said:

Yes i know ill not seeing it, but i am mad that there are quality issues like those from 10 years and they get worse when at same time the price and waiting time goes up. When you buy a TV, or a phone, or a car and something else, their performance may be fine too, but itll not be cool the car paintjob to be scratched or panels dented and etc. No effect on the performance should not be an excuse for cutting corners and expenses and in same time you want more from the customer and the worst thing you waiting months for this. But whatever...

I'm with you here.  Love the concept and the performance of a lot of the EFR range, but I recommended them to a couple of people who both received EFRs in the last couple years with worryingly shitty casting and I was straight up embarrassed about pushing a >$3,000NZ product to someone because of the quality and performance promised for something that crap to show up and I'm not going to do it again.   There are options which will tolerate more punishment, are nicer made, easier to package and potentially may compete as well... at least the balance of the other variables make them more appealing.

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20 hours ago, gixer said:

Yes i know ill not seeing it, but i am mad that there are quality issues like those from 10 years and they get worse when at same time the price and waiting time goes up. When you buy a TV, or a phone, or a car and something else, their performance may be fine too, but itll not be cool the car paintjob to be scratched or panels dented and etc. No effect on the performance should not be an excuse for cutting corners and expenses and in same time you want more from the customer and the worst thing you waiting months for this. But whatever...

100% with you on this

just imagine receiving a brand new set of lmgt4s with a big chip taken out of one of the spokes and then getting the same response from nismo that from time to time there can be imperfections but doesn’t affect the function of the rims

i bet everybody here would be super pissed about it

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Full-Race Geoff said:

which manifold and wastegate config are you considering?  If divided manifold and dual gates, theres ~300rpm spool difference from 8374 to 9174.  

as a reference point, one of my customers recently switched from 8374 1.05 to g35-1050 1.06 to 8474 1.05 on his 2.5L subaru sti track car.  8474 was almost identical spool to 8374 and it was a surprise to me

It will be a HKS T4 manifold w/ a 60mm gate. Would there be a difference?

Edited by cachorro
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5 hours ago, UWISSH! said:

100% with you on this

just imagine receiving a brand new set of lmgt4s with a big chip taken out of one of the spokes and then getting the same response from nismo that from time to time there can be imperfections but doesn’t affect the function of the rims

i bet everybody here would be super pissed about it

 

The difference there being that rims are primarily an aesthetic component, and their performance is a somewhat secondary consideration for most. Turbos are the opposite, people want the best performance and their aesthetic appeal is less important. 

 

All of that said, I do still 100% agree with the point being made and I'm a little surprised by BW's response to it. Yes, casting inclusions can happen from time to time, but it's still an issue and you dont sell that to someone. It might only be a cosmetic flaw, but it does not inspire confidence in the product as a whole. At the very least, offer those ones at a discounted rate, you can't sell that for the same price that you sell a perfect one. But realistically any company should be wary of putting their name on flawed products, I would be throwing those ones in the bin.

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5 hours ago, Unzipped Composites said:

 

The difference there being that rims are primarily an aesthetic component, and their performance is a somewhat secondary consideration for most. Turbos are the opposite, people want the best performance and their aesthetic appeal is less important. 

 

All of that said, I do still 100% agree with the point being made and I'm a little surprised by BW's response to it. Yes, casting inclusions can happen from time to time, but it's still an issue and you dont sell that to someone. It might only be a cosmetic flaw, but it does not inspire confidence in the product as a whole. At the very least, offer those ones at a discounted rate, you can't sell that for the same price that you sell a perfect one. But realistically any company should be wary of putting their name on flawed products, I would be throwing those ones in the bin.

I forgot to mention the thing you just said, when you watching those kind of defects and how their quality control, if they have any, give OK to be used, how you can be sure and confident about the quality control of the CHRA-bearing, wheels, shaft and etc. And one of the advertisements from the begining is the beautifuly casted turbine and compressorr housings, which very few people are lucky to get. It can be treated like some sort of scam when you see the perfect pictures in every onlineshop and their website and then you get those ugly pieces of metal. Even i am worried to touch where the cover is chiped, because i am scared to not snap off more metall from it. And at the end this response from BW.

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On 22/06/2021 at 2:10 AM, gixer said:

Borg Warner "perfectoin"!!! When you paid 3k$, waited 3 months and at the end get this shit 😶

194730746_4067343503343506_9195616559134998994_n.jpg

197739613_1437304306647499_965925608342397114_n.jpg

Woah. I was lucky then. My 9180 cast was pretty good. Although I did sand it down and get it powdercoated. Now she makes 1bar at 3k on mine.

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Just so people know it's not an isolated incident! This is my brand new compressor cover from a 8374 alloy supercore that I purchased to replace my old turbo which has a slight bearing noise which I put down to oil starvation due to a restrictor put in the line from the Fabricator even though it was clearly stated not to run one with this turbo.

Not only did the new cover look like shit the new turbo was overly "tight" from factory and after numerous phone calls and diagnostics with GCG I was told it was fine and to run it... Did a few warm up laps at Wakefield Part and just about melted the cold side piping and cooler due to the turbo issue as it was glowing hot!

Took the turbo back to GCG for warranty repairs and had it stripped, assessed and re-assembled with no fault found but now the turbo spins freely and spools down as it should.

Car had not been run on a track since that day as I have zero confidence in the setup and I am strongly considering selling the whole hot side and going back to a single gate, single scroll basic setup to remove potential failure points!

The turbo was only one of many issues with my cars setup, since the build it has lifted the head, gates have come loose, gate lines/fittings have melted or broken and the thing wont keep oil in the engine!

The reason my car hasn't seen the track in nearly 2 years is shonky workmanship in a big $ build and left hanging with an expensive POS that I can't drive for more than a session!

I will build it back up again and get it on track soon but I doubt it will be with an EFR still fitted!

End of rant..... Actually probably not..... 🤬

 

20210625_141359.jpg

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Yep - I have had three different EFR's - and still run an 8474.  All have had this casting issue and I didn't like it either.   The Turbo's perform well - but its disappointing to see this lack of quality control - and yes it does make you naturally wonder if there are other problems that you can't see.

I think that Borg Warners attitude to "its fine, and doesn't stop it working" is not a good thing.  As others above have said, other manufacturers seem to get their castings nice and tidy and you would expect that the top of their line be well finished.   Maybe BW should have a read of this thread and think about it for Version 2.0.    

PS.  I've had 8374 and 8474 back to back on same engine - and I can say that in my experience the 8474 definitely does not spool as quickly as the 8374.   I can say this from dyno charts, seat of the pants feel, logging and track times.   The 8474 does exactly what you would expect:  Spools a bit later (200-300rpm), and makes a bit more power up top.   

 

 

 

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I don't understand why people don't go & handpick the turbo from the shop. Inspect the thing before buying it.

Also, I strongly believe the "casting issue" turbos are bought at a discount from BW and sold on for same price by the suppliers. My 7670 from GCG has no issue whatsoever.

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12 minutes ago, BakemonoRicer said:

don't understand why people don't go & handpick the turbo from the shop. Inspect the thing before buying it.

You're kidding right ? Australia bigger than just Sydney mate...

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1 hour ago, BK said:

You're kidding right ? Australia bigger than just Sydney mate...

Turns out most of Sydney can't go to a shop at the moment either.

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This is irrelevant considering most people bought their turbos pre-coved & flights used to cost $50.

I'm doing a product inspection if I'm paying plus $3k, given the fact its well known some suppliers have more issues than others......

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BakemonoRicer said:

I strongly believe the "casting issue" turbos are bought at a discount from BW and sold on for same price by the suppliers. My 7670 from GCG has no issue whatsoever.

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1 hour ago, BakemonoRicer said:

given the fact its well known some suppliers have more issues than others......

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sorry but no, BW doesnt discount. and the suppliers get whatever bw sends us

Edited by Full-Race Geoff
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16 hours ago, BakemonoRicer said:

This is irrelevant considering most people bought their turbos pre-coved & flights used to cost $50.

I'm doing a product inspection if I'm paying plus $3k, given the fact its well known some suppliers have more issues than others......

 

Sorry but that's just utter bullshit mate. Your reasoning on trying to defend poor quality control from Borg Warner is just ridiculous.  How the hell has a supplier / distributor got anything to do with product quality ? As Geoff said it's not like they're building the bloody things !

Why should you have to inspect a turbo before purchase ? Would you say the same about buying a block, stroker kits, gearboxes and the like that cost more than a turbo - that you should fly somewhere and "inspect" it before purchase ? Does your reasoning now sound silly when put like that ?

Buying an EFR shouldn't be a lottery - they are a big company and that should mean strict QA control measures.

17 hours ago, Duncan said:

Turns out most of Sydney can't go to a shop at the moment either.

True that Duncan. I do feel sorry for you guys in the east coast in that regard. Just come back from Darwin V8 supercars on the weekend with 50,000+ there and it's like what pandemic - is there a pandemic ? Covid what ?

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7 hours ago, BakemonoRicer said:

This is irrelevant considering most people bought their turbos pre-coved & flights used to cost $50.

I'm doing a product inspection if I'm paying plus $3k, given the fact its well known some suppliers have more issues than others......

 

Did you inspect your SR stroker kit that came from USA before it got sent to Japan or will you inspect it when it lands in Aus…. After it’s been built?

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4 hours ago, Piggaz said:

Did you inspect your SR stroker kit that came from USA before it got sent to Japan or will you inspect it when it lands in Aus…. After it’s been built?

How dare you use logic to fight stupid...

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14 hours ago, BakemonoRicer said:

I don't understand why people don't go & handpick the turbo from the shop. Inspect the thing before buying it.

Also, I strongly believe the "casting issue" turbos are bought at a discount from BW and sold on for same price by the suppliers. My 7670 from GCG has no issue whatsoever.

 

You should be a politician Benji; just as out of touch. I'm surprised you don't send your butler to go do the inspection for you.

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You guys are honestly desk chair professors.

Please tell me any other way you will be happy other than to handpick your turbo (with KNOWN casting issues). These casting issues have been talked about for AGES!!!

Borg Warner clearly aren’t changing their approach - their quality control clearly has a line in the sand, the other solution would be a mass boycott and mass complaint - which won’t happen!!!!

I win because my solution is the only rock solid fix at this point in time 

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