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Amin206

My 550whp v-spec R33gtr Needs help

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Hi guys I’ve been reading this forum since I got my gtr 2 months ago and I got pretty good information also my car is imported from Australia to Canada so I decided to open a topic and share my story.

When I got the car it was smoking white and a little blue previous owner Told me it might need a new piston rings and bearings. It was driving pretty good and no more white smoke after 10min drive long story short after couple of days driving, one day I got too excited and reved it up then I heard a knocking sound and maybe 2 minutes later engine seized while it was on 1000rpm and not in gear...

so I transferred the car to where I live in Toronto and decided to build the engine by my self and it’s going to be my first time ...

right now engine is out and I found why engine seized it was the main bearings... 2 of them and the first one at the end of crank was the cause of the engine to stop. 

interestingly all the con rods pistons block surface and head surface don’t show any sign of damage. 
right now I need a good plan to build my engine. I know when the main bearing is gone that means crank and block needs machining. There are visible  scratches on the crank and pretty bad sign of wear on main girdle I didn’t remove the crank to see how the block looks like cause at this point I think I know the answer...

the problem is here in Toronto we don’t have good machinist and after reading bad experiences some of you guys had with machineshop I might get new bottom end include block. Piston size is 87mm so I have to get new 86mm if I get new block.

also i have problem finding new girdle as I think it’s not included with the new block 

let me know what do you think guys

these are some pictures that I got from the situation 

the head condition is not bad but there’s small area that chipped off close to valves and somebody fixed it before .you can see the pictures at the end

camshafts have some small scratches where they seat I included the pictures is it normal?

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There must be a decent machine shop, Toronto's not that small! Any opinions from the interweb are guesses, that needs to be checked and measured.

I don't know what you know about the engine's history, but some of those bores still seem to have hone marks (cross hatches) on them and 87mm pistons aren't factory, so someone has been in there before, and probably recently. And of course you can't tell how good a job was done, or why the engine was apart that time....

Also, a main bearing is only going to seize due to a major oil supply problem, so you need someone who can work out what happened there.

As for repairs, cranks can be checked for straightness, ground for undersized bearings and the block and girdle tunnel bored to match so that can all be fixed depending on the depth of the scores. My guess is the cams will need replacement and the cam journals will need tunnel boring too. And, at least one of the cylinders looks like it needs honing at least; if so you need new rings for 87mm pistons, or if the block needs boring out from 87 it should probably be junked. I'd carefully check and probably replace the oil pump

A new block might be the way to go, they come with matching machined girdle but be careful assembling as they don't come with all oil plugs etc installed. If you go that way you will still need new 86mm pistons and rings, all bearings, and you still need to get the head checked for those scores.

You need to thoroughly clean all externals that have oil (oil/water heat exchanger under the oil filter, any oil cooler should be replaced), turbo(s), oil lines etc as they will all have bearings in them that can kill the fresh engine before you reassemble.

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First thing I would do is open the oil pump, to determine if that failed (pretty common) second thing I would do it throw the whole lot in the bin and start again 

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Welcome to :sau: !

Lots of capable people on here who can help you out. I'm definitely not one of them. 

As this is the newbie intro section you might not get much traction in regards to users seeing this and replying. I can move the topic to a new section for you if you'd like?

 

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7 hours ago, Duncan said:

There must be a decent machine shop, Toronto's not that small! Any opinions from the interweb are guesses, that needs to be checked and measured.

I don't know what you know about the engine's history, but some of those bores still seem to have hone marks (cross hatches) on them and 87mm pistons aren't factory, so someone has been in there before, and probably recently. And of course you can't tell how good a job was done, or why the engine was apart that time....

Also, a main bearing is only going to seize due to a major oil supply problem, so you need someone who can work out what happened there.

As for repairs, cranks can be checked for straightness, ground for undersized bearings and the block and girdle tunnel bored to match so that can all be fixed depending on the depth of the scores. My guess is the cams will need replacement and the cam journals will need tunnel boring too. And, at least one of the cylinders looks like it needs honing at least; if so you need new rings for 87mm pistons, or if the block needs boring out from 87 it should probably be junked. I'd carefully check and probably replace the oil pump

A new block might be the way to go, they come with matching machined girdle but be careful assembling as they don't come with all oil plugs etc installed. If you go that way you will still need new 86mm pistons and rings, all bearings, and you still need to get the head checked for those scores.

You need to thoroughly clean all externals that have oil (oil/water heat exchanger under the oil filter, any oil cooler should be replaced), turbo(s), oil lines etc as they will all have bearings in them that can kill the fresh engine before you reassemble.

Well I can’t find one that I can really trust there are some good machineshops and mechanics in b.c and Alberta and most jdm imported cars come from there...

I have some documents from the car that shows engine has been built 2 times before. First one shows the reason was only for increasing power and second time was for piston ring failure.

the car was burning oil when I got the car I got it checked by a professional mechanic and they spotted oil on piston number 4 and they suspected number 1 too and if you look at the pictures again 1 piston doesn’t have any sign of carbon which is number 4. It could be valve seals or piston rings.

as you mentioned oil was the problem... when I opened the drain plug there was not enough oil in there I would say maybe half but I’m surprised because I checked the oil when I got the car and the engine failure happened couple of days after that and I only drove it maybe 30-45min but it was smoking a lot maybe all that oil smoked away? Or dipstick doesn’t show right!

I don’t have enough information about boring cam journals.if the cam journal needs boring how the new cam gonna fit in there? There was no bearing in there

also my cams are kelford cam

oil cooler isn’t reusable after this not even with enough cleaning?

8 hours ago, r32-25t said:

First thing I would do is open the oil pump, to determine if that failed (pretty common) second thing I would do it throw the whole lot in the bin and start again 

thats what I will do tomorrow... con rods still look good though 

5 hours ago, PranK said:

Welcome to :sau: !

Lots of capable people on here who can help you out. I'm definitely not one of them. 

As this is the newbie intro section you might not get much traction in regards to users seeing this and replying. I can move the topic to a new section for you if you'd like?

 

Sure if it helps then why not.

thanks

 

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Looks like somebody already moved it into projects.

Good luck! 

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Welcome, looks like you got bit, hard, GTR’s have a way of draining your wallet. 
best thing to do is park it up, like you have, and have a good think about what you want out of this car, once you have direction. Then you can set about sourcing parts and getting it back together. 
my advice, don’t skimp on anything or you’ll end up paying two or three times to get what you want (I’ve been through that a couple of times 😖

as a start Z1 motorsports in the states sell some engine parts at really good prices. They do an N1 crank for $550usd 

good luck, look forward to reading your updates 

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On 11/09/2020 at 1:54 AM, Old man 32 GTR said:

Welcome, looks like you got bit, hard, GTR’s have a way of draining your wallet. 
best thing to do is park it up, like you have, and have a good think about what you want out of this car, once you have direction. Then you can set about sourcing parts and getting it back together. 
my advice, don’t skimp on anything or you’ll end up paying two or three times to get what you want (I’ve been through that a couple of times 😖

as a start Z1 motorsports in the states sell some engine parts at really good prices. They do an N1 crank for $550usd 

good luck, look forward to reading your updates 

Thanks for your advice 

this is where I am right now I talked to a machine shop that was recommended and they will resurface the head and polish the cams and cam journals they said cams will only need polishing... 

they can fix the block and crank for $500 I also found used crank in good condition but n1 crank for $550usd is a great price 

if I fix the block and crank I will only need new pistons cause con rods are pretty good and all my expenses will be about 3k

but if I buy a new block and crank  it will be around 7-8k

I think you would go with second plan which I think I would do the same cause I heard lots of bad stories but only 3k to fix this engine kinda makes me thinking or maybe wishing lol

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20 minutes ago, Amin206 said:

Thanks for your advice 

this is where I am right now I talked to a machine shop that was recommended and they will resurface the head and polish the cams and cam journals they said cams will only need polishing... 

they can fix the block and crank for $500 I also found used crank in good condition but n1 crank for $550usd is a great price 

if I fix the block and crank I will only need new pistons cause con rods are pretty good and all my expenses will be about 3k

but if I buy a new block and crank  it will be around 7-8k

I think you would go with second plan which I think I would do the same cause I heard lots of bad stories but only 3k to fix this engine kinda makes me thinking or maybe wishing lol

 

 

Did the machine shop actually measure anything or did you just talk to them and they haven't seen the engine? I don't feel like the machine shop can know if the block and crank can be fixed unless they have measured it. If that engine has been built twice before, you have no idea how much has been ground off the crank/is the crank bent at all; it looks like it has ARP main studs so you don't know how much the tunnel has been bored, you don't know how much has been decked off the block and head previously, etc. The thing about building engines is the machining all has to be spot on. When it has been built twice already and failed twice already, it's somewhat of a risk to go again unless you really trust your machine shop to know what they are doing and to do the job properly.

 

For one thing, I can see whoever built the motor the first two times hasn't even bothered to clean up the cast marks in the block. That in combination with the 2 failures already and the types of failures - I would have very little confidence in that block and the previous work, let alone any subsequent work.

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I took some pics from con rods pistons oil pump and cylinder bore

I think I’ll need new pistons if I m gonna fix the block they are scratched. In the picture you can see the scratches and there are same signs on the opposite side of the piston as well probably oil issue? 

Oil pump screws were so tight and I damaged one of them while trying to open it any one know what size they are? 
also I think oil pump is upgraded 

con rods don’t have any sign of damage but there are sign of wear on rod bearings

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13 minutes ago, Unzipped Composites said:

 

 

Did the machine shop actually measure anything or did you just talk to them and they haven't seen the engine? I don't feel like the machine shop can know if the block and crank can be fixed unless they have measured it. If that engine has been built twice before, you have no idea how much has been ground off the crank/is the crank bent at all; it looks like it has ARP main studs so you don't know how much the tunnel has been bored, you don't know how much has been decked off the block and head previously, etc. The thing about building engines is the machining all has to be spot on. When it has been built twice already and failed twice already, it's somewhat of a risk to go again unless you really trust your machine shop to know what they are doing and to do the job properly.

 

For one thing, I can see whoever built the motor the first two times hasn't even bothered to clean up the cast marks in the block. That in combination with the 2 failures already and the types of failures - I would have very little confidence in that block and the previous work, let alone any subsequent work.

They only saw the head and cams not the block and crank yet I don’t know them so can’t really trust them for the block but they were recommended in a supra forum and they worked with rbs before. 
I asked them to do the valve cleaning as well do you guys recommend it or should I tell them to leave it the way it is ?


I have 2 receipt that shows previous owners spent more than 25k only for labour at 2 shops and  they didn’t do a good job at all So I think I won’t even bother taking the block to the machine shop... 

how about buying a used block ? One member from this forum have one for sale and he claimed there was no previous damage to the block only bored out to 87mm 

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I wouldn't touch a modified block unless you can measure it and check what has been done to it.

 

Honestly, there is a scary amount of work being done at sub-par levels. Machining an engine properly is not an easy thing, especially on an RB which has the girdle as opposed to individual main caps. Just line boring the tunnel properly should be a $1000 job if it is being done right. But a lot of places either don't know how to machine everything properly, don't have the equipment, or are happy to cut corners knowing that 99% of their customers won't measure what they have done. And when an engine spins a bearing because it didn't have full crush because the tunnel wasn't line bored properly, then nobody is going to point the finger at the machine shop and say they didn't do their job properly. Or when a headgasket lets go because the block/head weren't machined well enough, everyone will blame the headgasket before they look at the machinist.

 

I'm not saying this is all machine shops either by the way, there are lots of good ones too. But you're putting a hell of a lot of trust in the one you pick to do your engine, because they don't have an easy job, and if they don't do it correctly then at the end of the day it's coming out of your wallet. So to use a block that has had work done by someone you don't know, that is very trusting indeed.

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Yeah too much work and risk I will order new block And crank  tomorrow hopefully can drive my car in a month or so... I only had a chance to drive it for 45min but that engine sound is playing in my head all day wish I had more money to get one in good running condition... they’re pretty expensive here in Canada.

2 questions do you guys recommend changing oil cooler and oil pump? My oil pump doesn’t look bad I guess 

also I’m not sure about using con rods they Look good but the fact that they’ve been into a seized engine makes me nervous also found a small scratch sign on 2 of them can’t feel much by nail though 

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mate, new block or not, you  still need to get everything cleaned and measured to make sure it is all in spec, choose correct bearings etc etc. Don't just guess/hope, it will be having it's 3rd rebuild...

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sorry, and yes, replace the oil cooler and oil/water intercooler. you can't reliably clean bearings out of either.

given it was an oil starvation issue, I'd replace the pump too.

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On 10/09/2020 at 7:29 AM, r32-25t said:

First thing I would do is open the oil pump, to determine if that failed (pretty common) second thing I would do it throw the whole lot in the bin and start again 

Do it once, do it right. No room for error on an engine rebuild.

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Yeh I would replace all of that stuff. End of the day, what's an oil cooler, $250-$300? What's a new engine build, 10k-15k? Imagine destroying that engine because you didn't want to buy a new oil cooler. Madness.

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Thank you all for helping me

I ordered new block 

wiesco 86mm pistons

manley h beam rods

unfortunatley z1 racing is out of stock for n1 crank any other source?

For oil cooler I can order the oem part from Japan but it’s $600 what about using aftermarket relocation kit? Any benefits compare to factory?

Any suggestions for oil pump? N1 oil pump is available too but my used oil pump has upgraded gears maybe getting regular oil pump and replace the gears with my used upgraded gears?

Edited by Amin206

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Can't help for a crank source in Canada, hopefully someone else here can.

 

Oil cooler, get a Setrab or Mocal 19 or 25 row with minimum AN10 fittings. One of those coolers plus lines and fittings should come in under $600 for sure.

 

N1 pump has higher flow over standard pump, so I would still get an N1 pump. If you want to reuse your gears, it also depends what pump your gears are from, N1 and standard are different size gears. Personally, I would get a new N1 pump, and if your gears don't suit it then new gears as well.

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12 hours ago, Amin206 said:

unfortunatley z1 racing is out of stock for n1 crank any other source?

There is no such thing as an RB26 N1 crank, contrary to what people are advertising. 12200-05U03 is just the latest R34 long nose crank that superceded previous part numbers, used in all RB26. Kudos has in stock for about the same price through Amayama.

The N1 crank in R33 was the same previous part in all 33 RB26s, 12200-05U02.

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