So confused about Turbos. Garrett, precision, BW.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

9 minutes ago, Lithium said:

What is your power target?   I feel like I've said a few times that the 3576 should be capable of more than some may expect, or do I not count as an SAU internet mechach00ner?

500kW+ at the wheels, might try drag racing and roll racing so I break less things

According to this exaggerated chart by Garrett, we could "assume" it is possible, given we've seen the Gen 1 GTX3582 do close to those numbers in a real world scenario.

Nah, you're cool, you actually tune cars so respect what you say. It's when internet mechanics or internet faux tuners start pushing their agenda on others is when it's not cool, especially when they've never tuned a single thing.

[khezz]

59 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

I will at first, to see if I can get what I want out of it.. I have a suspicion I "might" get there but all the SAU internet mechanic/tuner experts don't think I will get there. If not, then hello Precision lol.

Curious, what's your build, plan, goal?

Can you give a little more detail about your build please. 

How are you choosing your turbo? (Hp, speed, drivability etc.)

Edited April 20, 2021 by khezz

[Lithium]

26 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

500kW+ at the wheels, might try drag racing and roll racing so I break less things

According to this exaggerated chart by Garrett, we could "assume" it is possible, given we've seen the Gen 1 GTX3582 do close to those numbers in a real world scenario.

 

Phwooooar going to be pushing it, maybe on a hubber?   No maybe what its going to be pretty damn saucy, in that size range I don't feel like there is a Precision turbo that response vs power is going to be a worth while change from what you have.  

[khezz]

I suppose the other part that may be getting overlooked is how the turbo holds its power. I will set my limit at 8500rpm. It all good getting great responce and peak power early but it has to stay there to. You see alot of dyno graphs where responce is great and peak power is reached early but dies off immediately. Real street have a great set of videos testing various precision turbos and he actually points out that he would pick the 72mm turbo over the 68mm even though it slightly slower to spool up. Purely because it reaches 1000hp with less boost and holds it for around 3000rpm where the 68mm gets there and dies immediately.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

24 minutes ago, khezz said:

Curious, what's your build, plan, goal?

Can you give a little more detail about your build please. 

Car was mainly used for track, skid pan and some street duties, however since the old motor (built myself, bar the rotating assembly) let go I decided to transform the car into more of a street car and make it something fun for roll racing, maybe drags, Powercruise and the odd skid pan/track day. I want it to all come in by 4200~4400RPM and spin it to 9000rpm, delivering a wide, usable, fun powerband.

Pretty run of the mill setup, RB25 NEO with forged pistons/rods, ARP hardware, ACL bearings, etc. I did have Tomei Poncams in there, but they snapped and took the motor out too (cracked a block lol). So now Kelford 264/272 are going in, oversized exhaust valves, Plazmaman intake manifold/plenum and converting to DBW.

Will still use the same Garrett GTX Gen 2 3576 with the 1.01 divided rear housing though, on a Sinco twinscroll manifold merged into a single 50mm Gen V Turbosmart gate.

 

22 minutes ago, Lithium said:

Phwooooar going to be pushing it, maybe on a hubber?   No maybe what its going to be pretty damn saucy, in that size range I don't feel like there is a Precision turbo that response vs power is going to be a worth while change from what you have. 

Should be fun for sure, but let's see how we go. I believe 500kW on a hub dyno is possible. Been talking to Alex at Birrong Automotive and a few things have popped up here and there. What started off as a simple refresh, has now turned into something stupid. Oh yeah, you probably didn't noticed, but the car got a make over LOL.

 

Also sorry @khezz for the high jack lol... I say go Precision, but run an Oil Pressure Regulator and an inline oil filter.

[Lithium]

4 minutes ago, khezz said:

I suppose the other part that may be getting overlooked is how the turbo holds its power. I will set my limit at 8500rpm. It all good getting great responce and peak power early but it has to stay there to. You see alot of dyno graphs where responce is great and peak power is reached early but dies off immediately. Real street have a great set of videos testing various precision turbos and he actually points out that he would pick the 72mm turbo over the 68mm even though it slightly slower to spool up. Purely because it reaches 1000hp with less boost and holds it for around 3000rpm where the 68mm gets there and dies immediately.

This kind of thing is why I asked all kinds of questions trying to ascertain where you were wanting to go, as you didn't put that across with your original question.   The fact you were asking at all, and the fact you highlighted that it would be on pump gas, used on the street and sitting at around 700whp most of the time suggested that you might be quite concerned about the "around town" part of the rev range.   Realistically if you are concerned about the 8500rpm part of the rev range then you have to be willing to sacrifice some of that bottom end, which it sounds like you are now - hence we've moved on and a couple of us are telling you to go 76mm Precision

Different people like different things, and this is why people are silly to make out like there is one size fits all - there will be people who will shake their head at the big cams and big turbo discussion for a street car that is going on.  Hell, it is not the way I'd go personally BUT I understand that different strokes work for different folks.   I've seen that Real Street video misses this kind of point entirely to me, in some ways it shows how the 68mm is way better for the street - or that the 72+mm is where you are transitioning into something which is more of a drag/hp hero car.    It dulls the car down on the road, but is much faster if you're keeping it on the boil... IF you have the build to keep it on the boil like that.

A 72mm+ turbo that does everything at the top end is not going to be the perfect thing for someone who might want to be able to accelerate hard without dropping 3 gears and / or using rolling antilag to make a quick burst of acceleration happen.  

 

[Piggaz]

1 hour ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

500kW+ at the wheels, might try drag racing and roll racing so I break less things

According to this exaggerated chart by Garrett, we could "assume" it is possible, given we've seen the Gen 1 GTX3582 do close to those numbers in a real world scenario.

Nah, you're cool, you actually tune cars so respect what you say. It's when internet mechanics or internet faux tuners start pushing their agenda on others is when it's not cool, especially when they've never tuned a single thing.

Would love to know how they come to those figures. A 3076 gen 1 makes more than a 3576. What on earth is that? Turbine side as it gets bigger makes less grunt. 🧐

[GTSBoy]

Yes, well, the numbers for the 3076 do seem unrealistically high. That 640 engine HP is what? ~360 kW at the rollers? Are they assuming ethanol?

[khezz]

29 minutes ago, Lithium said:

This kind of thing is why I asked all kinds of questions trying to ascertain where you were wanting to go, as you didn't put that across with your original question.   The fact you were asking at all, and the fact you highlighted that it would be on pump gas, used on the street and sitting at around 700whp most of the time suggested that you might be quite concerned about the "around town" part of the rev range.   Realistically if you are concerned about the 8500rpm part of the rev range then you have to be willing to sacrifice some of that bottom end, which it sounds like you are now - hence we've moved on and a couple of us are telling you to go 76mm Precision

Different people like different things, and this is why people are silly to make out like there is one size fits all - there will be people who will shake their head at the big cams and big turbo discussion for a street car that is going on.  Hell, it is not the way I'd go personally BUT I understand that different strokes work for different folks.   I've seen that Real Street video misses this kind of point entirely to me, in some ways it shows how the 68mm is way better for the street - or that the 72+mm is where you are transitioning into something which is more of a drag/hp hero car.    It dulls the car down on the road, but is much faster if you're keeping it on the boil... IF you have the build to keep it on the boil like that.

A 72mm+ turbo that does everything at the top end is not going to be the perfect thing for someone who might want to be able to accelerate hard without dropping 3 gears and / or using rolling antilag to make a quick burst of acceleration happen.  

 

I am going from a 2.6 with a 8.5:1 ratio with old lowmounts that came on around 5000rpm to a 3.2 with a 9:1 ratio with a latest and greatest bearing baby that should start pulling around 3500 with ball biasing by 5000rpm. Plus it will most likely be a 6 speed sequential. It will be better on the street no matter what. Dropping a gear to travel back in time is a small price to pay

[khezz]

35 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

Car was mainly used for track, skid pan and some street duties, however since the old motor (built myself, bar the rotating assembly) let go I decided to transform the car into more of a street car and make it something fun for roll racing, maybe drags, Powercruise and the odd skid pan/track day. I want it to all come in by 4200~4400RPM and spin it to 9000rpm, delivering a wide, usable, fun powerband.

Pretty run of the mill setup, RB25 NEO with forged pistons/rods, ARP hardware, ACL bearings, etc. I did have Tomei Poncams in there, but they snapped and took the motor out too (cracked a block lol). So now Kelford 264/272 are going in, oversized exhaust valves, Plazmaman intake manifold/plenum and converting to DBW.

Will still use the same Garrett GTX Gen 2 3576 with the 1.01 divided rear housing though, on a Sinco twinscroll manifold merged into a single 50mm Gen V Turbosmart gate.

 

Should be fun for sure, but let's see how we go. I believe 500kW on a hub dyno is possible. Been talking to Alex at Birrong Automotive and a few things have popped up here and there. What started off as a simple refresh, has now turned into something stupid. Oh yeah, you probably didn't noticed, but the car got a make over LOL.

 

Also sorry @khezz for the high jack lol... I say go Precision, but run an Oil Pressure Regulator and an inline oil filter.

No worries. I love reading other people's stories, thoughts, ideas. Might just read something that makes me change my mind and helps build my perfect ride.

[Lithium]

13 hours ago, GTSBoy said:

Yes, well, the numbers for the 3076 do seem unrealistically high. That 640 engine HP is what? ~360 kW at the rollers? Are they assuming ethanol?

All sorts going on wrong with that, no least being that Garrett have been gradually adjusting how they provide power estimates for a given compressor flow.  Back when I first started reading compressor maps they took the flow at the chokeline of the compressor at PR2.0 and multiplied it by 10 - which in most cases with modern engines/tuning actually resulted in pretty conservative engine hp estimates, ESPECIALLY when E85 was concerned.  

When the GTX series came out they seemed to stick with the "multiply by 10" strategy for lb/min to hp, but now they pulled the "peak" choke flow for the compressor instead of whatever it was at PR2.0.

When the GTX Gen2 series came out they seemed to have changed their multiplier to 11, and they seem to have stuck to that with the G-series as well.

That graph above looks like they probably forgot to use the same multiplier across the board, and somehow still let it get to market like that - which looks ridiculous.   I can sortof see why they've changed the multiplier as the old one didn't really reflect what most were getting out of their turbos before, BUT where it starts feeling disingenuous is where they've left the previous generations rated using the same old system - which makes it seem like the difference between the old and new Garretts are much bigger than they really are.

I guess an example would be if you rated a GT3582R using Garrett's estimate for GT, then for GTX, then GTXG2/G-series it would be respectively 600hp, 650hp, and 715hp.    All for EXACTLY the same turbo.

On the flipside, if you did the same thing for the GTX3584RS which Garrett rate as good for up to 1000hp - that comes out at around 750hp, 890hp and 980hp.  Basically they are claiming it as capable of 250hp more than they would have pre 2010.

13 hours ago, khezz said:

I am going from a 2.6 with a 8.5:1 ratio with old lowmounts that came on around 5000rpm to a 3.2 with a 9:1 ratio with a latest and greatest bearing baby that should start pulling around 3500 with ball biasing by 5000rpm. Plus it will most likely be a 6 speed sequential. It will be better on the street no matter what. Dropping a gear to travel back in time is a small price to pay

Ah yeah, its been many a year since I've been around 2.6s with low mount twins and comparing with different things - it will be a beast by comparison, lol

[Lithium]

On 19/04/2021 at 6:10 PM, khezz said:

Turbo choice 4. Twin BW EFR7163. Will make the power, rare/unique, save on engineering. Some amazing kits in US. Yet still by far the most expensive. Should be great all around. Almost no data available. Very limited if decide to upgrade.

Between this, and me trolling this thread with Xona Rotor propaganda - I happened to have stumbled on a pretty relevant kind of post on Instagram today, dude turned out to have swapped from twin EFR7163s to a single Xona Rotor XR11569S on his RB28.   I stand by the 7685 being probably the beast for your aims, but thought this would be interesting info as a point against the EFR7163s....

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKZ0greHgfj/

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

It's funny you see all the RB26 try super hard to stick to twins but in the end they just give up and go single sex spec.

In the 2JZ world, most just go single from the get go and don't bother stuffing around with twin aids.

[GTSBoy]

32 minutes ago, Dose Pipe Sutututu said:

In the 2JZ world, most just go single from the get go and don't bother stuffing around with twin aids.

To be fair though, that's mostly because the Toyota twin system is actual aids with all that back to back sequential bullshit. There are few options to improve it and many things to not want to keep. By contrast, at least the Nissan system uses 2 actual identical looking and reasonably normally specced turbos. So there are options and therefore reasons to allow the inertia (of staying twin) to prevent the tear-it-up-and-start-again approach from being the first option.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

3 minutes ago, GTSBoy said:

To be fair though, that's mostly because the Toyota twin system is actual aids with all that back to back sequential bullshit. There are few options to improve it and many things to not want to keep. By contrast, at least the Nissan system uses 2 actual identical looking and reasonably normally specced turbos. So there are options and therefore reasons to allow the inertia (of staying twin) to prevent the tear-it-up-and-start-again approach from being the first option.

I think if Nissan implemented the twins a little bit better, i.e. individual ICs, individual plenums per turbo then in theory they would perform decent. But two cocks one hole generally doesn't sound like efficiency.

No one outside of that one crazy dude in Japan that @Piggaz pointed out has ever done the full retard (not half retard) twin approach.

[khezz]

14 hours ago, Lithium said:

Between this, and me trolling this thread with Xona Rotor propaganda - I happened to have stumbled on a pretty relevant kind of post on Instagram today, dude turned out to have swapped from twin EFR7163s to a single Xona Rotor XR11569S on his RB28.   I stand by the 7685 being probably the beast for your aims, but thought this would be interesting info as a point against the EFR7163s....

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKZ0greHgfj/

Wow. Every video and post I have seen about the twin efr has been positive. Even a couple of dyno graphs I could find looked impressive. The only down sides were price and difficulty with install.

Just shows that there really is two sides to every turbo install. Thank you. Very informative indeed. 

Im looking into Xona just to satisfy personal curiosity. Seems like a good product. Wonder why it's not more popular in Oz. I'm probably living under a rock.

[Lithium]

22 hours ago, khezz said:

Wow. Every video and post I have seen about the twin efr has been positive. Even a couple of dyno graphs I could find looked impressive. The only down sides were price and difficulty with install.

Just shows that there really is two sides to every turbo install. Thank you. Very informative indeed. 

Im looking into Xona just to satisfy personal curiosity. Seems like a good product. Wonder why it's not more popular in Oz. I'm probably living under a rock.

I guess results all vary, I'm not sure that I've seen a solid EFR twin result yet - like not bad, but nothing to sing out about yet... be interested if you have anything you can point me at though as I obviously like to keep aware of this kind of thing.

The Xonas are worth a look for the right situations I think, again I don't think it's the right thing for your needs but they are great.   Popularity does not necessarily have any reflection at all on how good or potent a product is.  I remember mentioning Precision turbos to people in NZ/Oz for YEARS before they started being used and people basically responded the way people tend to respond to Xonas at the moment, more or less the way you did.  Better the devil you know, I guess?

 

 

[khezz]

4 hours ago, Lithium said:

I guess results all vary, I'm not sure that I've seen a solid EFR twin result yet - like not bad, but nothing to sing out about yet... be interested if you have anything you can point me at though as I obviously like to keep aware of this kind of thing.

The Xonas are worth a look for the right situations I think, again I don't think it's the right thing for your needs but they are great.   Popularity does not necessarily have any reflection at all on how good or potent a product is.  I remember mentioning Precision turbos to people in NZ/Oz for YEARS before they started being used and people basically responded the way people tend to respond to Xonas at the moment, more or less the way you did.  Better the devil you know, I guess?

 

 

https://www.affinismotorsports.com/products/full-race-nissan-skyline-gt-r-rb26dett-efr-twin-turbo-kit

There is some graphs and videos. If you search on face book there is also a log of an OZ built gtr that was using twin efr. Install looks amazing. Still love the twin setup on gtr. 

 

Install video log.

 

[jet_r31]

7685 over the g42 1450..people seem to be having back. Pressure issues with them,they definitly like the big housings. 

Was talking to a mate that did a 3.2 the other day..backpressure was threw roof with g42 1450

No dollar spared thing.. Sequential.. Bullet billet block.. Motec m150..

Switched to 7685 and spooled faster and made heaps more power with no more backpressure issues

Know another guy with a 30/26 tried 1450, went 1.00/1.15 before using 1.28because same deal

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by jet_r31

[Lithium]

On 23/04/2021 at 3:10 PM, khezz said:

https://www.affinismotorsports.com/products/full-race-nissan-skyline-gt-r-rb26dett-efr-twin-turbo-kit

There is some graphs and videos. If you search on face book there is also a log of an OZ built gtr that was using twin efr. Install looks amazing. Still love the twin setup on gtr.

stall video log.

 

Oh yep have seen all the stuff there, the EFR7163s tend to make 800-900whp max depending on the dyno (which is consistent with the Xona result) - which is decent, but not any territory outside of what people have made with singles.  Sky-Engineering are one of the outfits which use "BHP" so that 1000+hp number is not what it looks like, if you're assuming that's whp and just by reputation I won't really necessarily take results from there as gospel.

The video blog didn't show any results, in terms of presentation if you like that then definitely have to weigh that up - but so far I've never seen a legit 1000whp all-turbo from an EFR7163 setup.... let alone on the likes of a Dyno Dynamics dyno.  Nothing against them, just strongly suggesting that they aren't the best tool for your job by a long shot.