Whiteline Adj. Swaybars Settings?

[hrd-hr30]

just when you thought it was all over... thanks for your wonderfully insightful input, JCMarshall_Law.

[Sydneykid]

the car in my avatar is a HR30. Had it for a couple of years now, and its the one I had when i joined up here - hence the name... It actually handles very well. But I've got no plans to run it at any events. I'm actually selling that one as well. Too many cars!

I bought an R32 GTR a bit over a month ago to replace the 1200 for hillclimbs and sprints. Its still just the way I bought it, with Jap coilover kit (yes, very stiff valving), and adjustable castor rods. Looks like standard bars on it. I'm trying to track down some adjustable upper arms for the front - it desperately needs some camber. If I can't find any (seems to only be the rears that are popular), I'll have to get some made. But otherwise, I'm very happy with the handling and balance of the car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For adjustable upper front control arms try Noltec (Greg or David). www.noltecsuspension.com

Note that they are not legal for Improved Production. Neither are the adjustable radius rods either.

For adjustable bushes (eccentric style for camber and caster) that are legal for Improved Production, just send me off a PM and I can organise it via the Group Buy.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

For adjustable upper front control arms try Noltec (Greg or David).  www.noltecsuspension.com

Note that they are not legal for Improved Production.  Neither are the adjustable radius rods either.

For adjustable bushes (eccentric style for camber and caster) that are legal for Improved Production, just send me off a PM and I can organise it via the Group Buy.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks. The offset bushes won't give me the camber I want, and they're fiddly things. I'll try Noltec. have you ever used their adj arms?

I'm not worried about being IPRA legal. Mt Cotton Hillclimb has an AWD Turbo category without any specific rules and the QLD Supersprint series will fit me in somewhere. As long as i get a run I'm happy. i don't have any plans to circuit race the car.

[Sydneykid]

thanks. The offset bushes won't give me the camber I want, and they're fiddly things. I'll try Noltec. have you ever used their adj arms?

I'm not worried about being IPRA legal. Mt Cotton Hillclimb has an AWD Turbo category without any specific rules    and the QLD Supersprint series will fit me in somewhere. As long as i get a run I'm happy. i don't have any plans to circuit race the car.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We run lots of caster so we don't need a lot of camber on the front, only at Philip Island do we use anywhere near the 4 degrees maximum. We actually remove negative camber from the rear, at the right ride they always have too much without the adjusters.

If we need more than 4 degrees negative camber to get even front tyre temps, then I know we don't have enough antiroll.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

We run lots of caster so we don't need a lot of camber on the front, only at Philip Island do we use anywhere near the 4 degrees maximum.  We actually remove negative camber from the rear, at the right ride they always have too much without the adjusters.

If we need more than 4 degrees negative camber to get even front tyre temps, then I know we don't have enough antiroll.

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The rear is easy to get adj arms to correct the excessive rear camber. and they most of this Japanese stuff is beautifully made and very good value too

are you saying you get 4 degrees static camber on the front with just offset bushes? at what ride height?

that's not much camber for a dedicated circuit car, but its about what I am aiming for with my dual purpose car. what category are you racing? Its not the Dave Loftus IPRA car is it?

[GTRgeoff]

What if someone were to suggest this guy sets up/manages several class winning cars Harry? Still a disbeliever?

I'm still a couple of days away from finishing the model. Still can't sit for long after the back surgery.

[hrd-hr30]

What if someone were to suggest this guy sets up/manages several class winning cars Harry? Still a disbeliever?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just asking a simple question. or are you still going on about how swaybars work? sorry if I upset you by daring to disagree with the SAU guru...

[Sydneykid]

The rear is easy to get adj arms to correct the excessive rear camber. and they most of this Japanese stuff is beautifully made and very good value too

are you saying you get 4 degrees static camber on the front with just offset bushes? at what ride height?

that's not much camber for a dedicated circuit car, but its about what I am aiming for with my dual purpose car. what category are you racing? Its not the Dave Loftus IPRA car is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are a whole host of settings we use on both the Improved Production and the Production (Combined Touring) GTR's. There are variabilities in ride height, alignment and damper settings for each circuit. The maximum we use is 4 degrees negative camber on the front, most circuits we don't even use that much.

This is Late Model Improved Production with serious roll cages and chassis welding. We can run a lot of caster, soft springs and serious antiroll, anti squat and antidive rates and low profile tyres. It is not some floppy 30+ year old Early Model Improved Production car with huge amounts of chassis flex that needs 6 degrees of camber to offest its deficiencies in rigidity and suspension design running 60 series tyres.

If we didn't have to run turbo restictors we could destroy every lap record in the country. But that isn't fair to the Early Model cars that dominate the numbers, so we wait patiently for that to even out. Plus I also look after a couple of Early Model Improved Production cars (one is the joint 2005 NSW and Vic Champion), so I don't want to burn all the bridges.

The best I can suggest to you is to use the tyre temperatures to tell you how much camber you need for your set up. My suggestion would be that if you need more than 4 degrees, then your set up is not going to give you the best lap times.

Hope that was of some help

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

no, it was of almost no help. All I asked was, do you get 4 degrees static camber on the front with just offset bushes? And the related ride height question, as you'd be aware the camber varies quite significantly with ride height on a 32.

as for sloppy 30yr old ealry model IPRA cars and how you'd destroy all their records if you weren't restricted, remember that the dominant early model cars have always been restricted too... As are the early model turbos. At least late model twin turbo cars get a greater overall area with their twin 27mm restrictors, which is a significant advantage over the single turbo cars.

pretty much any category running radial tyres uses up to 7 degrees static camber (depending on the track and conditions) including Porsche Supercup and V8 Supercar, etc etc... Not exactly floppy 30 yr old chassis.

Maybe one of the reasons Loftus' car keeps fading in the longer duration races is that it isn't looking after its fronts... I'd also suggest the relatively soft springs and over reliance on anti-roll could be causing problems too. I bet Dave finds he needs to stay off the ripple strips for one thing.

[Sydneykid]

no, it was of almost no help. All I asked was, do you get 4 degrees static camber on the front with just offset bushes? And the related ride height question, as you'd be aware the camber varies quite significantly with ride height on a 32.

as for sloppy 30yr old ealry model IPRA cars and how you'd destroy all their records if you weren't restricted, remember that the dominant early model cars have always been restricted too... As are the early model turbos. At least late model twin turbo cars get a greater overall area with their twin 27mm restrictors, which is a significant advantage over the single turbo cars.

pretty much any category running radial tyres uses up to 7 degrees static camber (depending on the track and conditions) including Porsche Supercup and V8 Supercar, etc etc... Not exactly floppy 30 yr old chassis.

Maybe one of the reasons Loftus' car keeps fading in the longer duration races is that it isn't looking after its fronts... I'd also suggest the relatively soft springs and over reliance on anti-roll could be causing problems too. I bet Dave finds he needs to stay off the ripple strips for one thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We could have nice old chat about "restrictions", there are plenty of opinions on that topic. The fact is Late Model Turbo cars would dominate the class if they were allowed to generate the same power as the V8's (Early or Late Model). One obvious example, I can have a 700 bhp VL with a 6 litre Chev in it, but I can only have a 400 bhp RB30 powered VL because of the turbo restrictors. Now that makes no sense at all to me.

Quick clarification, Dave is the driver of the IP car, he is not the owner, so technically it isn't his car. All 4 tyres actually go off pretty much at the same time due to the weight, we give away 400 kgs to the rotaries. As for the lap times going off, I think you are being tricked by the good start the 4wd gives. These are the lap times form the last Eastern Creek round of the NSW championship;

50 Dave Loftus Skyline Gtr R32 1:53.0985 1:47.6990 1:47.1596 1:47.8643 1:47.4363 1:47.4839 1:47.3391 1:47.3691

Race win with the fastest lap being on lap 3 (1.47.1596) compared to the last lap (1.47.3691). That's not a big deterioration in lap times (2/10ths of a second), not perfect admittedly, but it is being worked on I can assure you.

As for settings, maybe I was bit too subtle, let me be a little more blunt. I am not about to blurt out on an open forum, in detail, the suspension settings that we have worked for 3 years to arrive at. So that the other 4 X GTR's that can't catch us get a free leg up. I have told you the philosophy that has worked for us, if you choose not to believe it that's fine by me. Just go and buy a pyrometer and find out the camber settings for yourself. If you want to know the ride height versus dynamic camber, take the springs out and jack the suspension up and down and measure it yourself.

Look, you obviously have it in your head to reject everything I say. Sorry, but until one of your cars finishes a race in front of any of mine, you are being a bit silly rejecting the free advice. In 2005, with 19 race wins out of 24 in Vic and 23 race wins out of 25 in NSW, you have a bit of catching up to do.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

We could have nice old chat about "restrictions", there are plenty of opinions on that topic. The fact is Late Model Turbo cars would dominate the class if they were allowed to generate the same power as the V8's (Early or Late Model). One obvious example, I can have a 700 bhp VL with a 6 litre Chev in it, but I can only have a 400 bhp RB30 powered VL because of the turbo restrictors. Now that makes no sense at all to me.

Would they? The Late Model V8s don't dominate IPRA, why would a late model turbo with the same power dominate it? There's only a few late model V8 that really give it a shake, and they're only really any good at fast open circuits. You have to remember the light early model rotaries are restricted too... And if they changed the turbo restrictor rules, the early model turbos would also benefit.

I am not about to blurt out on an open forum, in detail, the suspension settings that we have worked for 3 years to arrive at. So that the other 4 X GTR's that can't catch us get a free leg up.

well for starters, there are no other GTR's running NSW IPRA, and even if there were, giving away wether you get 4 deg static neg camber out of the Whiteline bushes isn't really going to let the cat out of the bag now, is it? Nevermind, i was only asking out of curiosity anyway.

As for the lap times going off, I think you are being tricked by the good start the 4wd gives. These are the lap times form the last Eastern Creek round of the NSW championship;

50 Dave Loftus Skyline Gtr R32 1:53.0985 1:47.6990 1:47.1596 1:47.8643 1:47.4363 1:47.4839 1:47.3391 1:47.3691

well done on selecting the best race result of the season. You'd be well aware that wasn't indicative of the car's performance for the majority of the season, where it typically ran with Leanne and often lead until a few laps had passed, and it started slipping back towards the rest of the pack. But quote one race out of context to "prove" your point if you want. If you have finally got on top of it, congratulations. I'd love to see the GTR winning some races.

Look, you obviously have it in your head to reject everything I say. Sorry, but until one of your cars finishes a race in front of any of mine, you are being a bit silly rejecting the free advice.

Until someone beats you on the track, they can't possibly be right? Good on ya mate. maybe you want to change your sig - you do know everything. BTW, the only thing I've challenged you on is the sway bar issue. I haven't rejected anything else, have I?

[Sydneykid]

Would they? The Late Model V8s don't dominate IPRA, why would a late m

model turbo with the same power dominate it?

Simple, the V8's are 2wd and there are plenty of 4wd turbos to choose from.

There's only a few late model V8 that really give it a shake, and they're only really any good at fast open circuits.

I am not sure what you mean by "give it a shake", the V8's do all right on most circuits. Count the top 5 positions around the country at the various circuits and you might be surprised.

You have to remember the light early model rotaries are restricted too...

Don't give me the BP versus PP BS, the power increase would be not substantial as the noise restrictions are a problem for the PP's. Certainly not double the power like we are talking about with restrictors. Remember we have arguably the #1 RX7 in the country in our team, certainly the #1 in 2005 in NSW and Vic.

And if they changed the turbo restrictor rules, the early model turbos would also benefit.

They don't have a weight limt, so why would you want to change the rules for them? I never mentioned EM turbo cars, they do OK with what they have.

there are no other GTR's running NSW IPRA

That's bit naive of you to think that the settings don't transfer over to Combined Touring. Plus SSS and Croydons are currently building a couple of IPGtR's , based on the success this year of#50.

giving away wether you get 4 deg static neg camber out of the Whiteline bushes isn't really going to let the cat out of the bag now, is it?

That's not what you asked.....

do you get 4 degrees static camber on the front with just offset bushes? And the related ride height

well done on selecting the best race result of the season.

I selected the last race of the season becuase that's the current state. As you well know lap times are affected by traffic, and the restrictors effect on top speed (what they were designed for in WRC) makes it hard to get traffic free times.

You'd be well aware that wasn't indicative of the car's performance for the majority of the season,

So you watch it on TV and suddenly you are an expert. Oran Park Jun meeting, fastest lap on lap 6;

50 Dave Loftus 1:23.4890 1:19.5370 1:19.1121 1:19.4040 1:20.3979 1:19.1071 1:19.8116 1:20.1272

Would you like another 10 examples? Sure it got better as the season progressed, what do you expect? We sit around twiddling our thumbs?

Until someone beats you on the track, they can't possibly be right?

We put our credability on the line 17 times a year for all to see. Keyboard warriors can sort themselves out.

BTW, the only thing I've challenged you on is the sway bar issue. I haven't rejected anything else, have I?

Shoot you really do have short memory, don't you? I could quote you a number of times (Porsches & V8 SuperCars with 7 degrees, front tyres going off, lap times dropping away, blah blah blah), but frankly we have strayed a long way from the topic of this thread.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

oh, I see - you only want to remove the restrictions on your class and leave all the other classes restricted. Yes, I'd have to agree that would certainly help late model AWD turbos dominate. you used the VL turbo as the example when you said late model turbo cars would dominate if allowed the same power as V8s, and I was wondering about the logic there. Plus I thought you were talking about removing turbo restrictors across the board in IPRA for the sake of equity. Sorry. I know a few rotary tuners and runners that would disagree about the power benefits of PP, but don't discount the effect removing turbo restrictors would have on late model turbo rotaries either. Maybe the AWD cars would have it all their own way.

IIRC, late model cars using the factory head and block are not subject to minimum weights either, which was your argument for not removing restrictors from the early cars.

OK fine, you want to protect your settings from other teams, but all I asked was if the offest bushes you were trying to sell me gave the 4 degrees camber as you alluded? (which btw, you still haven't answered) That's not giving too much away to the competition is it? And your ride height is easily eyeballed by other competitors anyway, and could easily and quickly be measured by any of them who particularly wanted to know. Its not the top secret stuff you're making it out to be. I never asked about any of your other setup parameters, and wouldn't on a forum. Besides, part of what I like about competing is setting up the cars myself.

I don't see why you are getting so defensive? or what's pissed you off this time? Fact is 4 degrees isn't alot for a dedicated circuit car. And its not just floppy 30+ year old cars with huge amounts of chassis flex that need 6 degrees of camber. Sorry if that offended you. It wasn't intended to.

The stuff about #50 was just an observation, and I think an accurate one for the season as a whole. As I said before, if you've got it sorted, that's great. Well done. I'd love to see it take the dominance away from the rotaries.

As for the combined touring cars, I'm not familiar with what rules they run under and what restrictions they have with suspension rules or even what type of tyres they run, so I don't know if the IPRA settings translate.

[Sydneykid]

you used the VL turbo as the example

VL's are Late Model

cheers

[Trust33]

Yep, more leverage = lower bar rate

Two holes on each arm = 3 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2 middle

2 / 2 hardest

For the guys with 3 holes per arm = 5 settings as follows;

1 / 1 softest

1 / 2

2 / 2 middle

2 / 3

3 / 3  hardest

cheers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi SK so what you are saying here is:

The bar can be setup running offset holes to acheive different rates of torsion.And it has no effect on the rates that each side is able to acheive.i.e.The rates wont differ from side to side.

Does this rule apply with a 4 hole adj front bar as well?

Also when setting up the car for castor and camber how do you tell the degree of angle you are running??

[Sydneykid]

Hi SK so what you are saying here is:

1. The bar can be setup running offset holes to acheive different rates of torsion.And it has no effect on the rates that each side is able to acheive.i.e.The rates wont differ from side to side.

2. Does this rule apply with a 4 hole adj front bar as well?

3. Also when setting up the car for castor and camber how do you tell the degree of angle you are running??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Suggestions to your questions follow;

1. Yep

2. Yep, if you find, say, 2/2 is too little antiroll and 3/3 is too much, then try 2/3

3. Camber is checked using a camber gauge, basically a spirit level that indicates how far from verticle the wheel is when the steering is pointing straight ahead. Castor is a little more tricky as it is a measure of the camber change when the wheel is turned (usually 20 degrees). So you need a camber gauge and a degree gauge to measure it.

Hope that clarifies

cheers

[Trust33]

you need a camber gauge and a degree gauge to measure it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that.

Can a regular joe use these instruments?

Or is it best left to the experts!

Cheers

[Beer Baron]

anyone can use them, but unless you have the suspension parts to adjust camber and castor then there is not much point. so without the adjustable arms, or offset bushes there will be next to nothing to do. in my opinion you are better off taking it somewhere like heasmans and get them to adjust to your specs (again, assuming you have adjustment available).

[Trust33]

Yeah there is adj avaliable.Atm i have the car up on stands and am taking the arms etc off to get the original rubber pressed out.After that i will reinstall and take it down the road to be adj to my specs.

I will give the heasmans a call.

[The Bogan]

I done a search to find out what settings i should use on my new adjustable bars and found a nice offtopic discussion,