TSL

For hcr32 or a31 ? Oh i guess 32 since your using consult. TP lookup is at $1482

4 Rib K-section 925mm Dayco Polyrib: 4PK0925 Or equivalent.

Thanks for clarifying your position Tim, i appreciate that. The main issue i had was with you saying that it's not possible to do an accurate map-trace via consult. What was the problem you were having? Were you not able to get the TP calculation? May i ask if you have ever disassembled the ecu code to see how the ecu calculates its TP? I only created this thread upon suggestion from other members on here. I thought it would be good to share peoples experiences specific to rb ecu's as there is very little rb related info on the ztech forums and it's spread all over different threads. You should also note that the hcr32 address locations i placed up included a list of tables that are not in Live Edit or on the ztech forums. Let's face it, finding the information you are looking for on the ecu forums can mean hours of searching through different threads. I don't think it's that bad to have a collection of RB specific address and bin files and other info here in one place. I think it would be really good if you could contribute some of your experience to this thread too.

Hey i have a whole write-up on the advanced knock features of the standard ecu's planned. The active knock retard has saved so many engines over the years. If you get a knock code like that it will switch to the low octane maps. At light knock readings you have timing retard vs knock while staying on the main maps. I do the same thing, copy the main timing map to the knock map, but i take about 4-5 degrees out. When i have time i'll write that up with the ignition timing info. Oh with the ecu's the r32 hardware is the same they just have software changes, i have run 127 maps on 212b ecu's and vice versa with no problems. If you run an A31 ceffie by using an R32 ecu you can wire in a plug and get consult!

RedDrifter that is some very good advice! Your procedure for fine-tuning the K-value and Null time is excellent. With some maf and injector combinations you won't always get 0.1 afr change for 1 numeric change, and certainly r31, r34 etc use completely different values. It is a good rule of thumb however. I think the main emphasis should be on using a good quality, fast wideband. Do you or CEF11E have any more tips for people working without emulators. With realtime tuning i've become lazy.

OnGsTa can you slip me a PM mate. For quotes can people please PM, Email or Phone me just to help keep this thread on topic and help me keep track of things! For reference i am located in adelaide however interstate tuning sessions can be arranged for groups of at least 3 (three) cars. Cheers -Jeff

Lesson 2 Global Settings..... *********************** Now for the global tables, the best part is that most of these are set perfectly from the factory. In most situations you will never need to change most of them. 1. Speed Limiter : Easy one, just set it to what you want up to 512kph! 2. Rev Limiter : Another easy one, just don't be tempted to set it too high! 3. TTP Max (airflow limiter) : RPM based table, the values are related to airflow. A lot of tuners fill this with 255 dec to remove the cut completely. A better way is to use values around 200 dec and test that it still cuts at 2-3 psi higher than the max boost you wish to run. If a wastegate line ever splits or blows off then this could save your engine. 4. Closed loop switch : This value is related to coolant temperature. When you first start your car and when it is below a certain temperature it will not use the o2 sensor feedback. This value is the temperature above which the closed-loop fuel operation will happen. This rarely needs to be changed, unless you are experiencing cold running problems that cannot be fixed any other way. 5. Inj Null time : The time it takes to open and close for each different brand and type of injector is slightly different. You only need to change this when using non-standard injectors. There are some rule of thumb guides around which are not very helpful as they usually calculate approx null time based on injector flow. Most injector manufacturers provide this data if you search for it or just experiment for yourself. A useful hint for using gtr injectors in an rb20 is to look at the null value from the gtr ecu. 6. K value (inj calibration) : Again you only need to change this if you are using non-standard injectors or maf. Most of the formulae available on the net and even the calculations made by Live Edit are only approximate. Often they are out by 10-20%, always make your final adjustments in conjunction with a wideband a/f meter. Make sure you are testing in an open-loop part of the fuel map or simply turn off the o2 feedback while you fine tune the K-value. 7. TP Max (inj pulsewidth max limit) : RPM based table, the values are related to injector pulsewidth. You shouldnt need to change this for stock inj. Use common sense when doing this, there is no point putting 255 values in as the pulsewidth can never be that big at high rpm anyway. For larger injectors you will want to reduce some of the low rpm vales to prevent the chance of flooding. Changes should be based on the change in injector size, ie : 30% larger injectors will require a 30% shorter pulsewidth to flow the same as stock, so you can reduce the values in this table by 30% approx. 8. TP Min (inj pulsewidth min limit) : RPM based table, the values are related to injector pulsewidth. Again you can leave this for stock inj. It is important however to set this table correctly for larger injectors. No matter if you set the K value perfectly, if the TP Min values are too high you will always run rich on idle/light throttle regardless of o2 feedback. Once again make changes to these values based on the change in injector size as a %. 9. Decel Fuel Cut RPM : Temperature based table, values are related to rpm. If the idle switch is on (throttle shut) and the engine speed is above that set in this table then fuel cut is activated. You could tweak this for ultimate economy or remove it if you wanted to. 10. Decel Fuel Cut Recover RPM : Temperature based table, values are related to rpm. If the decel fuel cut has been activated then this table sets the speed at which injection starts again. Obviously this speed needs to be lower than the initial cut speed to work correctly. Tweak it if you like. 11. Idle Speed : Temp based table. Idle rpm vs temp, pretty much speaks for itself. Raise the idle rpm for lumpy cams etc... 12. Idle Timing : Temp based table. Idle ign timing vs temp. Change this if you need to for cams, low idle vac etc. 13. Temp Conversion : Voltage based. Temp degrees vs voltage. You should only need to change this if you are using a non standard coolant temp sensor. 14. Coil Dwell Duty : RPM based. Increase this for bigger spark charge. Will burn stock coils out very quickly, only good for aftermarket coils. Even then you probably shouldn't mess with it. 15. Temp Enrich : Temp based table. Overall enrichment vs coolant temp. Most of the time this is fine but you can fine tune it to solve cold running issues. If your injectors are huge and the engine setup varies wildy from standard this will need some tweaking. 16. Cranking Timing Advance : Temp based table. Ignition timing vs coolant temp, tweak this for big cam, low vac, hard to start engines etc. More later.....

You are really limited to using the standard features available in the stock ecu. There are some people who have experimented with adding custom features but it often involves some modifying of the ecu hardware or code. I feel that a remapped stock ecu is suited for low to medium spec engines. Something that is internaly stock with bolt-on mods. Remapping the stock computer is a cheap and effective solution for : removing speed limiter raising/removing air-flow (boost) limiter raising/lowering rev limiter running different size injectors running different maf optimising fuel and ignition timing maps For a high spec track or race setup it would be only natural to choose a high spec aftermarket computer. Horses for courses.

Yes it does. It's a shame you haven't had the chance to experience any decent consult software. Look i already put up a fuel map with a trace on it on the previous page. The ecu does make corrections based on various sensor input.... none of which change the map points that it reads from. Regardless, if you know what you are doing and are using the correct combination of hardware and software you will be fully aware of what the ecu is doing. Merlin i don't have a problem with you playing devils advocate here. It's potentialy a good way to clear up some mis-conceptions about factory ecu tuning. It would however be nice if you could refrain from making statements unless you are 100% sure that what you are saying is correct. It is quite likely that there have been a lot of developments recently in this area that you are unaware of. Cheers - Jeff

Yeah not much good for live edit as it uses custom address files which can not be edited. Shame really because it means you are stuck with the limited address files provide with live edit. For rom editor you can just edit the address files in notepad.

Some table locations for HCR32 (256k) ecu..... Address (in hex), map size, description $7d00, 16x16, High Octane Fuel Map $7500, 16x16, Low Octane Fuel Map $7af0, 16x1, TP (load) Scale for Fuel Maps $7b00, 16x1, RPM Scale for Fuel Maps $7400, 16x16, High Octane Ign Timing Map $7c00, 16x16, Low Octane Ign Timing Map $7b10, 16x1, TP (load) Scale for Timing Maps $7b20, 16x1, RPM Scale for Timing Maps $7f2b, 1x1 (16bit), K value (inj calibration) $7f88, 1x1, Inj Null Time $7f91, 1x1, Closed-loop activation temp $7a70, 1x64 (16bit), VQ (maf) table voltage vs airflow $7e90, 16x1, Inj pulsewidth max vs rpm $7e80, 16x1, Inj pulsewidth min vs rpm $7960, 16x1, Airflow limit vs rpm (boost cut) $7fb4, 1x1, Rev limit $7a0a, 1x1, Speed limit 1 $7a0b, 1x1, Speed limit 2 $7fa5, 1x1, Speed limit 3 $7e00, 16x1, After start enrich vs temp $7e10, 16x1, After start idle enrich vs temp $7e20, 16x1, First time start inj vs temp $7eb0, 16x1, Enrich vs coolant temp $7e30, 16x1, Decel fuel cut map $7e40, 16x1, Decel fuel recover map $7b30, 32x1, Coolant conversion table (temp vs voltage) $7b60, 16x1, Coil dwell duty $7e50, 16x1, Cranking advance vs temp $7ea0, 16x1, Idle (neutral) ignition timing $7e60, 16x1, Idle rpm control $3980, 16x1, Idle stabilisation control Cheers

Yes i have found some extra tables. I might share some later. I can edit my maps in real-time of course, using an emulator of sorts. It's true what you say about the fuel table rob82. It is in fact not a VE table but rarely is the maf/inj calibration acurate enough to allow for the kind of linear maps that some people expect to see. So you either tune the vq/maf table or tune the fuel table to suit. Sometimes its just easier to do the corrections in the fuel map is what i'm trying to say. Main point i wanted to make is not to rely on theoretical or calculated a/f. Just tune your fuel table by the wideband lambda readings. An example of different rb20 fuel maps... each engine had a similar setup and made similar power (200rwkw) yet each map is different to achieve a linear fuel reading around 12:1 a/f. All using stock injectors and maf.

I do ecu remaps professionaly, including rb, sr, ca, vg etc.... My setup is somewhat custom and unfortunately is not currently available to the public. The reason for this is that development is ongoing and the software is not even at a beta stage yet, bugs abound! Basicly it combines realtime map editing with full consult feedback and logging. As soon as it is more stable it will be available. You can get the same funtionality using a combination of a good consult program and live edit or nre. Cheers - Jeff

How the factory ecu works..... Lesson 1 : Fuel It's very important to understand how the fuel tables work within the factory ecu. Hopefuly if you have read the ztech link i provided in my first post you will realise that the fuel table is broken in to 2 modes of operation. Closed-loop and Open-loop. The factory ecu method of having flags for map points where closed-loop operation is required is quite clever and flexible. It allows you to easily customise your fuel maps to suit economy for road cars. Or for a track only car you may choose to turn closed-loop off for all but the idle region of the map. When in closed-loop the ecu uses feedback from the o2 sensor to achieve relatively precise a/f ratios around the 14.7:1 region. So when you are tuning the closed-loop part of the fuel map you can think of the values as being a form of a/f ratio target. If your injection and maf calibrations are correct then it is fairly easy to tune this part of the map. Open-loop is a different story. Most people make the mistake of assuming the values on the fuel map can be directly related to a/f ratios. It simply does not work that way, despite some software displaying theoretical a/f based on these values. For all open-loop operation you must think of the map as purely a Volumetric Efficiency map. Now the ecu makes some calculations based on airflow readings, engine speed and throttle position etc. If it were possible to hit certain a/f ratios based purely on these calculations then it would almost make the fuel maps redundant. In the real world it does not work like this. Every different combination of engine will have different operating efficiencies at variying load and rpm points. Proof of this is that even similar engine combinations can sometimes have wildly varying fuel maps to achieve the same target a/f ratios. The main thing is to forget what the map looks and only give the engine what it wants. If you end up with a big lumpy map to get linear a/f then so be it. If your engine needs a big lump of fuel correction in the mid range but fuel taken out top, do it. If your map ends up completely flat with seemingly low values but it shows correct a/f on the wideband then thats what the engine wants. This is one reason why you should never mess with pre-made maps, use maps or even base your own maps from other engines. Never tune without a fast wideband a/f sensor. The factory ecu is also a heavy interpolator! It always reads from at least 4 points on the map at once and averages between them. If the load and rpm values exactly match those of the map points then it will of course use the exact values in the map. As an example if you have map points at 5000rpm and 5500rpm but then engine is at 5250, the ecu will use a calculated map value exactly half way averaged between the two. So its a form of averaging, weighted towards the nearest map point. I don't think i explained that very well but do a google on interpolation if you need a proper explanation. It is just important to remember this when you have sharp transitions on your map. It helps to set your map rpm and load points correctly to avoid any issues. More later.....

The question that always comes up..... how fine is the tuning resolution? Really hard to quantify as there is much more to how an ecu works other than just how many map points it has. In short its on par with power fc, in some areas the factory ecu is better. A lot of people like the knock feedback from the power fc. Personally i like the active retard vs knock facility of the factory ecu. Much better than cheap/old standalones like microguess etc. Probably not fair and a little difficult to compare directly to big players like motec, autronic. Let's face it if you can afford to purchase, install and tune a motec then you are playing in a different league. The factory ecu's (even the old R31's) have at the minimum a 16x16 point map for timing and another 16x16 map for fuel. Cars made from around 1990+ have at least 2 maps each for fuel and timing. The load points and rpm points can be user defined to cover any scale you desire (within reason). Example fuel map with trace.....rb20det approx 210rwkw...... The factory ecu's ability to control injectors double the standard size and maintain perfect cold start and idle when tuned correctly is remarkable. Besides the obvious timing and fuel maps there are numerous other tables for controlling idle speed, A/C and P/S switching, decel fuel cut/recover, temp vs enrichment, accel enrichment, fuel cut (aka boost cut), max speed, max rpm, etc, etc... well you get the idea. All the things you would expect. One of the nice things about the factory ecu is how resilient it is to problems. Bad fuel, bad sensor, etc... fault/limp mode will still do its best to get you home with your engine in one piece.

Ok if people are going to try this themselves then here are a few suggestions...... Prehaps most importantly of all, you need some sort of feedback/trace facilities. It is essential to know exactly what TP values you are hitting. You need to know this so you can set your TP (load) scaling correctly. The easiest way to get this is via OBD consult. There are several manufacturers of consult cables..... PLMS : http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/consult_if.shtml Blazt : http://www.blazt.biz/index.html It's really the best $100 or so you'll ever spend. There are numerous software consult programs available, some are free or a very small cost. Some of them offer quite sophisticated datalogging. Search to find the program to suit your needs and budget. With consult you have constant, realtime streaming of data covering almost everything you need..... RPM (useful to log and see what map points your hitting) MAF voltage (find how close to the limits of your maf you really are!) Coolant Temp (useful to log) O2 sensor voltage (good for tuning light throttle points) Road Speed (signal from speed sensor in gearbox) Battery Voltage Throttle Position (signal from TPS, useful to log) Injection Time (in ms) Timing (current timing in degrees BTDC... is the ecu running the timing you expected?) TP (aka load... one of the most important pieces of info) Even if you don't have an emulator, consult feedback will save you a lot of time burning chips by allowing you to target problems more efficiently. Lets you know axactly what map points you are hitting. You can even make overall adjustments to fuel scaling and timing in realtime via consult, although these changes are not permanent. Needless to say you get full error display and fault readouts for all your sensors. Great for hunting down those idle issues. More later......

Post i responded to has since been deleted......

To do the R34 ecu you need to install a daughterboard, similar to the way the sr20 ecu's are done. It's a slight extra cost compared to the ease of doing an R32 ecu, but in reality its only about $250 all up to purchase the daughterboard and have it professionaly installed. Once you have done this modification you can the reprogram the R34 ecu using common 27c512 EPROM chips. All for less than the cost of a basic interceptor ie. apexi safc. One way around the R33 issue is to use a Z32 ecu.....

Just carrying on from the Sliding Performance turbo upgrade thread.... http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...2615&st=100 A lot of interest has been expressed in regards to re-mapping the factory ecu. I thought i would kick it off and maybe share a few secrets with those who want to learn more. First of all i must clarify a few things..... The methods discussed here will relate only to R31, R32 and R34 factory ecu's. R33 factory ecu's are notoriously difficult to remap. It can be done, there are a few methods, none of which are particularly cheap or easy to do. I may start another thread specific to R33 ecu's at a later time but as for now i don't want to clutter this thread with any R33 information. For those who are interested in learning the basic principals behind factory ecu remapping i suggest you have a read of this..... http://www.ztechz.net/id10.html Although some of the information is 300zx specific, the process is largely the same for R32. Now some software to get started..... (Rom Editor Link coming soon......) Lawrence Mooney's Nissan Live Edit and NRE http://www.romeditor.com/liveedit.html Some of the basic hardware you will need..... Decent quality soldering iron with adjustable temp. Good solder sucker and some braid/wick. 28 pin IC sockets. 27c256, 27c512 EPROM chips. Can be purchased online from various electronics parts suppliers. Search around for the best prices. UV EPROM eraser. These can be found quite cheaply on ebay. EPROM programmer. I use the willem unit...... http://www.darkwire.com.au/html/eprom_pcb4_5c.html There is also one on ebay called the TOP2004 EPROM programmer which is apparently quite a good unit also. To be able to make changes to the maps in real-time you will need some form of rom-emulator. The pocket romulator is available at a reasonable price and works with Live Edit. http://secure.transtronics.com/EPROM%20Emulator.html One of the most important things is to get some form of maptracing/ecu feedback. While it is possible to achieve this with the multi-rom/NRE combination, the total cost for this setup is above and beyond that of an aftermarket computer like a power fc. For the home tuner this is not practical. The most cost effective way to go is via OBD consult. Using an OBD interface cable and one of the various consult programs you can have full map-tracing, sensor feedback and even full data-logging with the correct software. You can get a consult cable from..... http://www.plmsdevelopments.com/consult_if.shtml (software links coming soon.....) *********************************************************************** I would like to provide software, address files and maps..... If somebody is kind enough to provide some web hosting! *********************************************************************** I will update this as time allows. Cheers -Jeff

In most cases not even remotely close for the open loop stuff. The closed loop stuff should be fairly close assuming the inj and maf are calibrated correctly.

Ok simons cars runing 98 octane. I'll send you the map, you will find its a lot more conservative than yours in the timing. I had 15deg btdc at peak torque then up to 18deg btdc at peak power. Are you using live-edit/romulator? Using consult for trace etc?

Yeah just cracks 204kw.

Hey CEF11E, it's Jeff from the speedlab here. I did the tune on simons car today. Curves look very similar, Simon has a printout with torque, i'll let him post that up. Made a few kw less than yours but thats probably partly due to the different dynos, weather, etc. But i was starting to run out of injector flow above 6000rpm if thats any indication. Twas also was suffering from ignition breakdown on a couple of occasions. I noticed your power seems to drop off a little early. How did you go with timing? I found i could sneak a few degrees more up top just to keep it sweet. On the whole a very impressive reading for such a rich tune. I'm sure there is a heap more in it with 12:1 afr. My opinion of the hi-flow rb25 turbo is that its very similar in response and power to the kkr-430. Its got 220rwkw in it easy on a rb20 with an upgraded fuel and ignition system to support it. Cheers -Jeff