Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

I stumbled across this information on a forum. Thought I would post it here for people to read. :devil:

The following excerpts are from Jay Kavanaugh, a turbocharger development engineer for Garrett Engine Boosting Systems, responding to a thread on Impreza.net, regarding exhaust design and exhaust theory:

“Howdy,

This thread was brought to my attention by a friend of mine in hopes of shedding some light on the issue of exhaust size selection for turbocharged vehicles. Most of the facts have been covered already. FWIW I'm an turbocharger development engineer for Garrett Engine Boosting Systems.

N/A cars: As most of you know, the design of turbo exhaust systems runs counter to exhaust design for n/a vehicles. N/A cars utilize exhaust velocity (not backpressure) in the collector to aid in scavenging other cylinders during the blowdown process. It just so happens that to get the appropriate velocity, you have to squeeze down the diameter of the discharge of the collector (aka the exhaust), which also induces backpressure. The backpressure is an undesirable byproduct of the desire to have a certain degree of exhaust velocity. Go too big, and you lose velocity and its associated beneficial scavenging effect. Too small and the backpressure skyrockets, more than offsetting any gain made by scavenging. There is a happy medium here.

For turbo cars, you throw all that out the window. You want the exhaust velocity to be high upstream of the turbine (i.e. in the header). You'll notice that primaries of turbo headers are smaller diameter than those of an n/a car of two-thirds the horsepower. The idea is to get the exhaust velocity up quickly, to get the turbo spooling as early as possible. Here, getting the boost up early is a much more effective way to torque than playing with tuned primary lengths and scavenging. The scavenging effects are small compared to what you'd get if you just got boost sooner instead. You have a turbo; you want boost. Just don't go so small on the header's primary diameter that you choke off the high end.

Downstream of the turbine (aka the turboback exhaust), you want the least backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of turboback exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure.

Again, less pressure downstream of the turbine is goodness. This approach minimizes the time-to-boost (maximizes boost response) and will improve engine VE throughout the rev range.

As for 2.5" vs. 3.0", the "best" turboback exhaust depends on the amount of flow, or horsepower. At 250 hp, 2.5" is fine. Going to 3" at this power level won't get you much, if anything, other than a louder exhaust note. 300 hp and you're definitely suboptimal with 2.5". For 400-450 hp, even 3" is on the small side.”

As for the geometry of the exhaust at the turbine discharge, the most optimal configuration would be a gradual increase in diameter from the turbine's exducer to the desired exhaust diameter-- via a straight conical diffuser of 7-12° included angle (to minimize flow separation and skin friction losses) mounted right at the turbine discharge. Many turbochargers found in diesels have this diffuser section cast right into the turbine housing. A hyperbolic increase in diameter (like a trumpet snorkus) is theoretically ideal but I've never seen one in use (and doubt it would be measurably superior to a straight diffuser). The wastegate flow would be via a completely divorced (separated from the main turbine discharge flow) dumptube. Due the realities of packaging, cost, and emissions compliance this config is rarely possible on street cars. You will, however, see this type of layout on dedicated race vehicles.

A large "bellmouth" config which combines the turbine discharge and wastegate flow (without a divider between the two) is certainly better than the compromised stock routing, but not as effective as the above.

If an integrated exhaust (non-divorced wastegate flow) is required, keep the wastegate flow separate from the main turbine discharge flow for ~12-18" before reintroducing it. This will minimize the impact on turbine efficiency-- the introduction of the wastegate flow disrupts the flow field of the main turbine discharge flow.

Necking the exhaust down to a suboptimal diameter is never a good idea, but if it is necessary, doing it further downstream is better than doing it close to the turbine discharge since it will minimize the exhaust's contribution to backpressure. Better yet: don't neck down the exhaust at all.

Also, the temperature of the exhaust coming out of a cat is higher than the inlet temperature, due to the exothermic oxidation of unburned hydrocarbons in the cat. So the total heat loss (and density increase) of the gases as it travels down the exhaust is not as prominent as it seems.

Another thing to keep in mind is that cylinder scavenging takes place where the flows from separate cylinders merge (i.e. in the collector). There is no such thing as cylinder scavenging downstream of the turbine, and hence, no reason to desire high exhaust velocity here. You will only introduce unwanted backpressure.

Other things you can do (in addition to choosing an appropriate diameter) to minimize exhaust backpressure in a turboback exhaust are: avoid crush-bent tubes (use mandrel bends); avoid tight-radius turns (keep it as straight as possible); avoid step changes in diameter; avoid "cheated" radii (cuts that are non-perpendicular); use a high flow cat; use a straight-thru perforated core muffler... etc.”

Comparing the two bellmouth designs, I've never seen either one so I can only speculate. But based on your description, and assuming neither of them have a divider wall/tongue between the turbine discharge and wg dump, I'd venture that you'd be hard pressed to measure a difference between the two. The more gradual taper intuitively appears more desirable, but it's likely that it's beyond the point of diminishing returns. Either one sounds like it will improve the wastegate's discharge coefficient over the stock config, which will constitute the single biggest difference. This will allow more control over boost creep. Neither is as optimal as the divorced wastegate flow arrangement, however.

There's more to it, though-- if a larger bellmouth is excessively large right at the turbine discharge (a large step diameter increase), there will be an unrecoverable dump loss that will contribute to backpressure. This is why a gradual increase in diameter, like the conical diffuser mentioned earlier, is desirable at the turbine discharge.

As for primary lengths on turbo headers, it is advantageous to use equal-length primaries to time the arrival of the pulses at the turbine equally and to keep cylinder reversion balanced across all cylinders. This will improve boost response and the engine's VE. Equal-length is often difficult to achieve due to tight packaging, fabrication difficulty, and the desire to have runners of the shortest possible length.”

Here's a worked example (simplified) of how larger exhausts help turbo cars:

Say you have a turbo operating at a turbine pressure ratio (aka expansion ratio) of 1.8:1. You have a small turboback exhaust that contributes, say, 10 psig backpressure at the turbine discharge at redline. The total backpressure seen by the engine (upstream of the turbine) in this case is:

(14.5 +10)*1.8 = 44.1 psia = 29.6 psig total backpressure

o here, the turbine contributed 19.6 psig of backpressure to the total.

Now you slap on a proper low-backpressure, big turboback exhaust. Same turbo, same boost, etc. You measure 3 psig backpressure at the turbine discharge. In this case the engine sees just 17 psig total backpressure! And the turbine's contribution to the total backpressure is reduced to 14 psig (note: this is 5.6 psig lower than its contribution in the "small turboback" case).

So in the end, the engine saw a reduction in backpressure of 12.6 psig when you swapped turbobacks in this example. This reduction in backpressure is where all the engine's VE gains come from.

This is why larger exhausts make such big gains on nearly all stock turbo cars-- the turbine compounds the downstream backpressure via its expansion ratio. This is also why bigger turbos make more power at a given boost level-- they improve engine VE by operating at lower turbine expansion ratios for a given boost level.

As you can see, the backpressure penalty of running a too-small exhaust (like 2.5" for 350 hp) will vary depending on the match. At a given power level, a smaller turbo will generally be operating at a higher turbine pressure ratio and so will actually make the engine more sensitive to the backpressure downstream of the turbine than a larger turbine/turbo would."

Link to comment
https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/264202-exhaust-design-and-exhaust-theory/
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • Did this end up working? Did you take some pictures?
    • And finally, the front lower mount. It was doubly weird. Firstly, the lower mount is held in with a bracket that has 3 bolts (it also acts as the steering lock stop), and then a nut on the shock lower mount itself. So, remove the 3x 14mm head bolts , then the 17mm nut that holds the shock in. From there, you can't actually remove the shock from the lower mount bolt (took me a while to work that out....) Sadly I don't have a pic of the other side, but the swaybar mounts to the same bolt that holds the shock in. You need to push that swaybar mount/bolt back so the shock can be pulled out past the lower control arm.  In this pic you can see the bolt partly pushed back, but it had to go further than that to release the shock. Once the shock is out, putting the new one in is "reverse of disassembly". Put the top of the shock through at least one hole and put a nut on loosely to hold it in place. Put the lower end in place and push the swaybar mount / shock bolt back in place, then loosely attach the other 2 top nuts. Bolt the bracket back in place with the 14mm head bolts and finally put the nut onto the lower bolt. Done....you have new suspension on your v37!
    • And now to the front.  No pics of the 3 nuts holding the front struts on, they are easy to spot. Undo 2 and leave the closest one on loosely. Underneath we have to deal with the wiring again, but this time its worse because the plug is behind the guard liner. You'll have to decide how much of the guard liner to remove, I undid the lower liner's top, inside and lower clips, but didn't pull it full off the guard. Same issue undoing the plug as at the rear, you need to firmly push the release clip from below while equally firmly gripping the plug body and pulling it out of  the socket. I used my fancy electrical disconnect pliers to get in there There is also one clip for the wiring, unlike at the rear I could not get behind it so just had to lever it up and out.....not in great condition to re-use in future.
    • Onto the rear lower shock mount. It's worth starting with a decent degrease to remove 10+ years of road grime, and perhaps also spray a penetrating oil on the shock lower nut. Don't forget to include the shock wiring and plug in the clean.... Deal with the wiring first; you need to release 2 clips where the wiring goes into the bracket (use long nose pliers behind the bracket to compress the clip so you can reuse it), and the rubber mount slides out, then release the plug.  I found it very hard to unplug, from underneath you can compress the tab with a screwdriver or similar, and gently but firmly pull the plug out of the socket (regular pliers may help but don't put too much pressure on the plastic. The lower mount is straightforward, 17mm nut and you can pull the shock out. As I wasn't putting a standard shock back in, I gave the car side wiring socket a generous gob of dialectric grease to keep crap out in the future. Putting the new shock in is straightforward, feed it into at least 1 of the bolt holes at the top and reach around to put a nut on it to hold it up. Then put on the other 2 top nuts loosely and put the shock onto the lower mounting bolt (you may need to lift the hub a little if the new shock is shorter). Tighten the lower nut and 3 upper nuts and you are done. In my case the BC Racing shocks came assembled for the fronts, but the rears needed to re-use the factory strut tops. For that you need spring compressors to take the pressure off the top nut (they are compressed enough when the spring can move between the top and bottom spring seats. Then a 17mm ring spanner to undo the nut while using an 8mm open spanner to stop the shaft turning (or, if you are really lucky you might get it off with a rattle gun).
    • You will now be able to lift the parcel shelf trim enough to get to the shock cover bolts; if you need to full remove the parcel shelf trim for some reason you also remove the escutcheons around the rear seat release and you will have to unplug the high stop light wiring from the boot. Next up is removal of the bracket; 6 nuts and a bolt Good news, you've finally got to the strut top! Remove the dust cover and the 3 shock mount nuts (perhaps leave 1 on lightly for now....) Same on the other side, but easier now you've done it all before
×
×
  • Create New...