Nitrous Purging

[^pilotboy^]

quite simple

lil blue bottle filled with laughing gas makes your car go zoom zoom

how much more technical do u want to get :S

[Sumo]

Meril: does the sulphur have an effect on your engine? I thought it may contaminate your oil or something like that.... The instant power would cause a bit of blow-by? And nitrogen, wont that turn into an acidic if you dont clean your donk out after a few runs with N2O?

[666DAN]

Even the post by rev10 states ‘oxygen ions’ not oxygen molecules which are two completely different things. The site I mentioned does talk about combustion in general…normal combustion requires the odd free radical to get it going…formed from O2 splitting. But as I was saying the extra power is from the huge amount of free radicals initiating the burn…produced by the decomposition of N2O directly into N2 + O*…it defeats the laws of physics to break down to O* generate O2 then break back to O*…that would rob energy from the reaction, which it obviously doesn’t as the car does get more power.

[DoughBoy]

Merli, here's the link to the NOS kit direct port kit with the injector spacers:

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Prod...SNS/NOSzle.html

A few other companies have copied this design now and are producing kits as well, pity the smallest kick you can get with the NOS kit on a 6 cylinder is 75hp...

Oh yeah, and Summit are selling this for ~$1100US, which works out to be around $1900 landed (with shipping, customs, tax etc.).

Edit: The sulphur is such a low quantity it has no effect on the engine, but makes you quite sick if you try to get high on it.

[Merli]

Dan, I respect you as a chemist, and you know what? FINE... It breaks down into O* free radicals... WHATEVER. It really makes NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever, what the Nitrous Oxide breaks down into pre-combustion when it hits atmospheric pressures and boils...

You obviously have no idea about Nitrous Oxide in automotive applications, and you just thought you'd stick your head in here and throw your $0.02c in, because you've done chemistry and thought it would be fun to talk about chemisty...

I can't be stuffed talking about what the fcuk N2O breaks down into anymore... If you think it breaks down into O*, fine... I only know what I've read, and what I've read makes sense to me... If that's wrong, then so be it. IT DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHAT N2O BREAKS DOWN INTO. All it does it supply the engine with SUPPLEMENTED oxygen, (it doesn't replace anything) so we can inject more fuel and make more power.

"same amount of fuel"... God help us. Seriously.

[Merli]

Sumo: As doughboy said, the sulphur dioxide doesn't affect your engine at all... There's only a teeny weeny bit of it in there, and it's only to stop kids going to their local performance workshop and buying 10lbs or nitrous to sniffing it

As for the Nitrogen turning acidic... I doubt it, as the air that we breathe and what we pump into our engines contains about 78% Nitrogen...

But perhaps Dan or Nath can confirm that one...

[nath_gtir]

Look Chemistry aside do some minor calculations:

just say 1 shot = 10ml of N2O

10ml of N2O will displace 10ml of normal air

N2O contains 36% O atoms therefore 10ml of N2O will contain 0.36 x 10ml = 3.6ml of O atoms which will equal 1.8ml of O2 molecules if they form oxygen before combustion according to Merril

However air already contains 20% of Oxygen so 10mls of air will equal (0.2x 10ml) 2ml of O2 molecules

Hence atmospheric air already has more oxygen in it then the nitrous per volume.

Who here has seen simply winding the boost (adding more oxygen) up outperforms adding nos in terms of power gains.....its radical molecular mechanism man!

[nath_gtir]

Ooppsss we are already over it... your atmopsheric composition looks roughly right of course it depends if your inner city or country to what the composition is.

[666DAN]

You do need help Merli...seems you can't even comprehend percentages based on O2 and O.

I was only saying that's the way nitrous worked...but you got your arse in your hand and decided to get a bit personal with it....get over yourself and just accept it when someone is actually trying to help on the forums by telling it how it is.

I'm done with this thread!!!

[Merli]

10ml of N2O will displace 10ml of normal air

Hmmmm... Why do you think that the nitrous oxide REPLACES air in the cylinder? By that theory, a turbocharger blowing air through the intake manifold (akin to nitrous jet blowing nitrous through the intake manifold) will DISPLACE air in the cylinders...

I'm afraid that it doesn't do this Nath, it SUPPLEMENTS the air... The engine literally sucks MORE O radicals/O2 molecules/Whatever into the cylinder so that we can squirt more fuel in and burn the extra oxygen -> More POWAH!!!

So going by your calculations, we'd be gettin 2ml of oxygen from air + 1.8ml of oxygen from the nitrous.

Which doesn't make sense to me btw... How does 3.6ml of Oxygen atoms suddenly halve in volume when bonded to form molecules? There are still the original amount of atoms sitting there, why would their volume change just because they've bonded?

[DoughBoy]

Who here has seen simply winding the boost (adding more oxygen) up outperforms adding nos in terms of power gains.....its radical molecular mechanism man!

But to simply "add more boost" you have got to consider alot of things.

Will the shaft speed of the turbo cope with it?

Do you have enough fuel flow with regards to injectors/pump?

Will your fuel computer provide the proper A/F ratio?

Are you simply falling off the edge of efficiency and just pumping hot air?

Can the turbo physically flow that much air?

There is no possible way that increasing the boost pressure on a system operating at it's peak efficiency already will outperform a turbo setup with nitrous injection. Just the intercooling effect of nitrous alone is enough to outperform a turbo only system operating past it's peak.

Consider an example. You've got a nice and shiny RB26 with 2530s. Running at 1.5/1.7 bar you're getting ~350awkw. To get over ~400awkw you'll either have to change to a larger turbo setup or install a small fogger kit. By going to a larger turbo (a T78 should be able to do it) you're going to loose alot of the response and low-down power that the 2530's are praised for. Pick a gas kit and you can increase both the response of the 2530's and the power output.

Excuse me for rambling but just wanted to point out there are alot of factors to consider with regards to engine setups.

Edit: Nath_gtir, you have forgotten to factor in temperature to your equations....

[Merli]

You do need help Merli...seems you can't even comprehend percentages based on O2 and O.

I was only saying that's the way nitrous worked...but you got your arse in your hand and decided to get a bit personal with it....get over yourself and just accept it when someone is actually trying to help on the forums by telling it how it is.

I'm done with this thread!!!

How did I get personal with it? I never attacked you personally...

"I need help"? Sounds like that's a personal attack, but I ain't gonna get my panties in a bunch over it... You've obviously stuck your head into a thread because you could throw your chemistry wand around, but you neglected to have even a BASIC understanding on how the chemicals work in this application.

[nath_gtir]

"Hmmmm... Why do you think that the nitrous oxide REPLACES air in the cylinder?"

Because cylinder volume doesn't magically increase when you add nitrous so it has to replace something it's the Law of conservation of matter.

"How does 3.6ml of Oxygen atoms suddenly halve in volume when bonded to form molecules?"

Because it is to do with kinetic energy and molecular/atomic orbital theory, thats like asking why does the volume increase in water when we heat it to steam.

Dough boy: I am just making a comparison that is all but thanks for the info...nice insight!

and I dont need temp I am simply making a point about oxygen availability per mole of N2O opposed to oxygen from air, But you are right technically (PV=nRT- ideal gas equation).

As I said this is my opinion and I will stick to

[Merli]

"Hmmmm... Why do you think that the nitrous oxide REPLACES air in the cylinder?"  

Because cylinder volume doesn't magically increase when you add nitrous so it has to replace something it's the Law of conservation of matter.

You're squeezing more gas into the same volume... The engine is SUCKING in air and the turbo/nitrous is PUSHING in air... results in greater than atmospheric cylinder pressures before compression... That's what boost is.

"How does 3.6ml of Oxygen atoms suddenly halve in volume when bonded to form molecules?"

Because it is to do with kinetic energy and  molecular/atomic orbital theory, thats like asking why does the volume increase in water when we heat it to steam.  

I see, I see... Interesting!

[rev210]

I'm not sure if this has been covered as a point ,but oxygen O2 acts to burn/react with something by becoming ionic. This is why there aren't explosions all the time in the atmosphere with O2 running into hydrogen.You need a bit of energy to get the ball rolling.

The N20 molecule liberates the O ion quite easily under the severity of combustion. This is why in and of itself it is not very flamable but, does add ferosity to an exisiting fire.