HYPED6

Hey Guys, Im not on here much, but I just thought I should clear up a few things about tuning E85. Yes you can hear detonation on e85. detonation is detonation, end of story. The same hi pressure wave still smashes the same piston area in the same way. The fuel makes no difference. E85 has a huge resistance to uncontrolled burn, this is what indicated the RON rating, not hard hard it is too ignite. With E85, or any fuel with high knock resistance for that matter is it wont normally ping unless in extreme conditions, so you wont damage pistons as such. What happens is tuners that over advance there engines hammer top rod bearings. Not by pinging the engine, but by making the high pressure event too early for the engine it self. There is no ping as such but the physical force still hammers the piston down and literally every power stroke puts more and more ware on the top rod bearing and little ends of the rods. The lower EGT's with E85 are from the evaporation of the fuel, more specifically the ethanol. The quicker it evaporates, the more heat it dissipates and the more fuel you need to use. This is a factor in the fuel usage, not the main cause. Another factor that will influence EGT's are ignition timing. The more timing you put in the lower your EGT's. regardless of fuel. So if we have an RB26 running -5's on 98 that can say run 26 deg at 8000rpm on 24psi with EGT's of 750 and we add 2 deg, the EGT's may drop 30deg to 720. The added timing may also cause the engine too ping. The pinging is not the cause of the lower EGT's, its the advanced timing. I have never seen an EGT fast enough that could detect a knock quicker than the human ear so it doesn't really make sense to use it as knock detection. Your engine would be dead way before the EGT Sensor has even picked it up. I have seen engines 16deg over advanced at full noise. I pull the timing out, EGT's go up, but the load on the engine drops massively but still makes the same power.

lol.... Now come on Guilt toy....... Dont be too harsh....... I see it as, If all you want to do is control coils and injectors, then they are not to bad at that. But as soon as you want to do ANYTHING else.... umm sorry, Like have a timing table that is more than a single line over load/rpm, or a fuel correction that isnt temp related, or control boost......... over wheel speed..... and airtemp..... and tps, Individual cylinder correction, wideband 02 feedback, stepper motor control, telemetry, lambda warnings, oil pressure/ temp warnings, automatic transmission control, oil cooler fan control, PWM nos control......... Wiper speed over wheel speed...... and yes it has been asked for. I love on ones that say....... O no I cant afford a $2000 ecu so I bought an LTX12, O and here is my $800 boost controller. Such a shame. Sorry, im getting lost in my own dribble here........But back on topic. Download the book from the microtech site and read it. Then read it again and it will probably still make no sense. Have a play with the tune on you ECU for a while, work out what does what....... Then read the book again....... twice...... Set your fueling so your EGT's aren't too high, don't let your engine ping and road tune until your fingers are sore. When the tune is done and you are happy with your results, put your feet up, grab a well earned frosty one and read a good book.......The Microtech one.

Also, to get the best out of the Nismo pump they require a re wire. We have seen these pumps fitted and flow 2.7 ltr per min at 40psi. Re wire the old girl with big red wires and got 4.8 at 40psi. And yes the wires must be red.

The more pressure you can add is better for the injectors. until the dont open at all because the coils in your injectors are too week. Also... the more fuel pressure you add the less your pumps will flow.

Wow. Didn't really read the whole umpteen pages on this thread on power vs rwkw vs inj size vs afr vs dyno vs mph. What I can tell you is what I saw today. On pump caltex E85 winter mix. Standard 1Jz. 2 x 044's 2 bar fuel pressure at idle. 1000cc inj (ID)'s powerglide no engine work, i mean none at all. Just bolt ons. This car until recently was Australia's fastest 1jz. Engine made 500rwhp on 26 psi at 11.4:1(no gas). For what ever reason...... we had to add more fuel through the computer (eg we couldn't jam any more fuel into the nos fuel jet... or lack there of) Made 640rwhp on gas with a baby shot. Manages to max the injectors at 460rwhp on E85 at 10.4:1 or 780 deg EGT. We have made over 800rwhp on this setup with a manual with the same fuel setup. Was it safe.... no. Where we controlling the injectors.... no way. It was just a hit and miss. you guys are missing one massive factor here. What AFR do you need to run to keep the engine alive..... is it 13:1..... or 9.8:1......... how much power is it making? how much surface area does the piston had to disapate heat? How good are your valve seats????....What are your EGT's????? I have also seen 640rwhp on 800cc sards on E85 on an RB20......... yes I know....... But im not actually kidding.......... We ramped the fuel pressure to massive levels, tuned the engine to make peak power at peak torque and not rev it and had massive fuel flow too do it. Did I let the engine leave like that? No way. AFR's where leaner that I would like them (proberbly helping the power output) (and probably where most tuners would leave it ) There are a lot of things you can get away with in the performance industry...... good quality fuel flow is defiantly not one of them

^^^^^^ What he said

uppy

Really? you don't have a 32x32 table that you can PWM over any axis then 4 2D tables under that 32x32 table for variable adjustments of any input into the computer? Bugger,

Umm, There is a stop point where the cam stops. Regardless of oil temp/flow/pressure. Its not closed loop as there is no feedback needed. Its on....... or off........ The computer all ready knows this. If it was a full variable system where the cam was infinitely adjustable (by the degree) then yes most defiantly a closed loop system would be needed. So the system is open loop.

Both are more likely to ping If anything in the setup is left to chance. Its not a definitive question or answer. Lets say you can have an engine that makes 200rwkw at 15 deg at 12:1. The same engine pings at 17 deg now the same engine makes 200rwkw at 20 deg at 10:1 but pings at 22. Both are in as much danger as each other. If it was my engine, Id look at running 10.5:1 and 17deg and make 195rwkw knowing im probably 3-4 deg from detonation, my engine is rich enough that my EGT's are low. Every setup is different. I have seen engines that will make 0.5% power difference from going from 13:1 to 12:1 to 10.5:1. No guessing where we leave them. I have also seen engine loose massive amounts of power from mixtures. This is where knowing what can be safely run and what cant is necessary. Personally, I have run turbo engines making over 400rwkw very close to 14:1 because I knew I could. On the other side of the coin, there are engine making over 500rwkw that I run in the 10's because I have too. (stock bottom ends) Both methods are as safe as each other provided they have been setup correctly.

Loads of timing and 10:1 will lower your EGT's and you turbo will love you for it. Both ways achieve the same results. However, 12:0 with less timing gives you less room to move if you tune is not spot on. For example, If you don't have Air temp correction in your fueling and you get a really nice cool run or air and your mixtures run hi 12's or 13's. Or battery correction, less voltage, more injector latency, less fuel so lean mixtures. The next step is, Set your engine up. no pinging 12:1 and hold it flat for 5 minuets at peak torque. See how long it lasts before you back off because your exhaust temps sky rocket over 1000c. Do the same thing on the same engine with 10.0:1 and more timing with no pinging and know your EGT's aren't going over 750c. Is either way correct, yes. Dependent on the application.

I like the look of the 3794.

ShaneF has a roller for sale. PM him.

I havent done back to back on a 6765 but I can tell youi that a 37-88 is a much better setup for over 400rwkw, Has almost (within 300rpm) the same responce as a 35 with .8 rear. I have even tried a plain bearing 66mm with a .64 T4 rear housing. Tiny litle bit more lag than a 35r with .8 on a 26 but has the scope for 450rwkw. For under 400rwkw the 35 is a perfect turbo

I have seen, in person, not just heard about 35R's being just out of puff at over 400rwkw for extended periods of use. Now, I love the turbo. I still believe that a 35R is the perfect balance between response and reasonable power output. What I also believe is that when pushed for extended periods at power levels at above 400rwkw a 66mm compressor turbo is a better choice. Its not that the 35R cant do it, its that you have to really push the turbo to do it for extended periods. Now, 400rwkw means= 400rwkw on a dyno dynamics dyno, in the correct shootout mode, in this case 6F with the air temp sensor hanging up on the wall not in the engine bay. EGT's also under 800C normally 750C just to ensure the longevity of the turbo. The correct fuel used for the application. I could easily make 450rwkw on the dyno with air temp in the engine bay and in some random ramp rate but thats hardly comparing apples with apples.

520 is a stout effort for 17 pound. What engine may i ask? We have commodores that run 145mph with 590rwhp. Maybe the dyno was having an off day,

Its funny. 18 months ago we would be cheering. 530 on 17 wow what a machiene! Now its....... stupid engine...... only making homo mid 500's. on under 20 pound of boost. I mean really, why even bother. Normally people start at 20 pound, not finish there.

I know there is a locally built unit that is in testing at the moment that will offer 0 - 5V output with multi channel EGT's Im sure you will hear about it when it is released.

Thats correct. We use a 5mm metric thread in our sensors and just weld a nut on each runner. It does sound like a pain, but Id rather pull my exhaust manifold/manifolds off than clean small pieces of melted piston out of my sump. Most people just include it in there next build or turbo up grade. For our setup we paid around the 2k mark. That was a few years ago now. The sensors have had a flogging with almost every fuel you could think of and they are still perfect.

Yeah thermocouples. A heat gun will only tell you the component temp of the exhaust manifold. A thermocouple will tell you the gas tempreture inside the component. We use a tempreture logger with 8 channels the plugs straight into my laptop. They are pretty fast and super accurate

Yeah pretty much what we all do at some stage or another, Willowbank a number of times. 10.2 @ 145 was the best. A lot of spirited street driving and power cruise's and track days at queensland race way. The car wasnt diven every day, but is definatly a testiment to what can be done to a standard cast piston when achieving 400rwkw.

EGT's are and must be measured out of the head and on each cylinder. If say cylinder 4 gets too hot and the rest are ok, then richen up just cylinder 4 under the boost levels where it is a problem. Get it within where you need it, and keep tuning knowing your number 4 piston is safe and happy and you can keep leaning on your cast pistons. Have a look at this video. Its not an RB but still a cast piston and standard 2.5 probably made in the same factory as nissan pistons. This engine eventually died from a broken rod bolt after the owner held the engine over 9000rpm for about 15 seconds doing a skid. All the pistons where perfect after 2 years of abuse with power levels of around 650rwhp. EGT's never went over 800c when raced O yeah. Watch the dyno on the first run....... then watch me crap my pants.

Yes they are the original pistons the car came out of the factory with. The only bottom end change is ARP rod bolts. I have never seen a piston break from cylinder pressure unless the engine pings. If you dont let them ping, and dont melt them they are pretty much indistructable.

Stock RB26 Bottom end Surecam Cams Supertech Valve springs 2 x piburg Fuel pumps 1200 RC injectors Proboost T04Z with 0.64 rear 444rwkw on about 30 psi. Pump E85 0.73 lambda EGT's 790c http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=336483

Nissan all the way here. 30 psi with no problems.