Adjusting Or Shimming Standard Suspension Parts

[dmr]

hey guys, i couldn't find a thread on this so here i go;

i'm trying to find a place in melbourne that can adjust the standard suspension of a car if things are slightly out. i'm mainly talking about control arms, caster rods, camber and toe. it seems that something might be out a couple millimeter, and is causing other things to go out. i don't think it's the cross member as it seems straight.

i'm not after a quick fix with aftermarket adjustable parts. i prefer to do things the right way first and last time.

friends referred me to Computer Line on high st in preston, which have a computer/laser type system which can see all the angles of the suspension. i went there and they said they could give a stat sheet of all the angles of the suspension and tell me what parts i need to replace (if any), but couldn't adjust them.

i've been told by a few people that there are places out there which will gather the data of what parts are out slightly, and adjust and shim what need be.

can anyone refer me to such places as this? as i'm having trouble finding any.

i'd prefer to fix things this way rather than grab a heap of aftermarket suspension items when it will most likely be 1 thing that's out a couple mil.

thanks in advance,

dave

[Grunter]

Hi Dave its a shame you are not in sydney I could do it for you,I had the same problem had to adjust

caster and camber and it can be done with shimming it takes a far bit of time though but can be done.

You really need someone who is old school and knows there stuff only a mechanic / tech to tackle this

job NOT for unskilled or untrained people

Good luck

[dmr]

Hi Dave its a shame you are not in sydney I could do it for you,I had the same problem had to adjust

caster and camber and it can be done with shimming the top control arm it takes a far bit of time though

but can be done.You really need someone who is old school and knows there stuff.If I recall properly I

think you can use up to 3mm shims there is not a great deal of thread to space it out to much though.

Good luck

hey mate, thanks for your input.

i was told i have to find an oldschooler and that alot of the newer people in the industry wouldn't be up for it as it does take time.

i'm sure there has to be somewhere in melbourne that does this sort of thing..

[Sydneykid]

i'm not after a quick fix with aftermarket adjustable parts. i prefer to do things the right way first and last time.

That would be by purchasing adjustable components. There is no way to adjust front camber and caster with the standard components. You can of course adjust the toe, both front and rear. On the rear there are standard (excentric washer) adjusters for camber, but they have a limited range (~0.25 degrees).

Hi Dave its a shame you are not in sydney I could do it for you,I had the same problem had to adjust

caster and camber and it can be done with shimming the top control arm it takes a far bit of time though

but can be done.You really need someone who is old school and knows there stuff.If I recall properly I

think you can use up to 3mm shims there is not a great deal of thread to space it out to much though.

Good luck

I am as old school as it gets on Skylines and I have no idea how to shim the front end for camber adjustment. The brackets for the upper control arms are welded to the chassis, so no shimming there. The lower control arms brackets are welded to the subframe, so no shimming there either. As for caster, the front radius rod brackets are bolted vertically to the subframe, so you could shim them but it won't affect the caster. Although it would affect the anti dive geometry. They are aloo vertically bolted to the lower control arm, so shimming there would have zero effect as well.

Since there are no shims standard to remove, even if you could shim, you could only do it in one direction, by adding shims. Which is not much help if it needs adjustment the other way.

Bottom line, that's why there are aftermarket adjustable components available.

Cheers

Gary

[Grunter]

Garry I have got after market camber bush kit (l wont say any brand names here) with a ride height of 20mm lower than std and run out of adjustment to much - camber.So I needed to reduce - camber so I had no other option but to take another path and the option I had was to shim it and I asure u you can adjust the camber with shims.I wanted to remove -camber and from memory we used a 3mm shim which gave us about 30 min adjustment.The caster the best way is to buy after market adjustable tension rods,we did adjuct the caster by only a fraction enough for me to be happy.The best way is to go after market for tension rods or adjustable bushs for even more adjustment as the std bushs are nearly due or overdue to be replaced on most cars anyway.With a combined total of 50 years between my farther and me I assure you it can be done!

Cheers

[Sydneykid]

Garry I have got after market camber bush kit (l wont say any brand names here) with a ride height of 20mm lower than std and run out of adjustment to much - camber.So I needed to reduce - camber so I had no other option but to take another path and the option I had was to shim it and I asure u you can adjust the camber with shims.I wanted to remove -camber and from memory we used a 3mm shim which gave us about 30 min adjustment.The caster the best way is to buy after market adjustable tension rods,we did adjuct the caster by only a fraction enough for me to be happy.The best way is to go after market for tension rods or adjustable bushs for even more adjustment as the std bushs are nearly due or overdue to be replaced on most cars anyway.With a combined total of 50 years between my farther and me I assure you it can be done!

Cheers

What model?

Front or rear?

Lowering by 20 mm (from standard height ie; ~360 mm for 2wd and 365 mm for 4wd) on R32/33/34's brings the front camber pretty much perfect for road driving at around 0.5 degrees negative

Lowering by 20 mm (from standard height ie; ~355 mm) on R32/33/34's results in slightly too much negative rear camber, but most times the standard adjusters will get it in the ball park at around 0.25 degrees negative.

The Noltec and/or Whiteline front and rear camber kits will easily correct (remove) that amount of camber to get to zero if that was your aim. So either we are talking about a model outside that range or you lowered it more than 20 mm from standard or it was bent and the camber was out of spec before you lowered it.

Regardless, I am very curious as to how you can shim something that is welded and/or bolted longitudinally.

We are up to 70 years of tuning suspension on cars and karts between us, so you have a few more to go to catch up

Cheers

Gary

[**RB2530**]

I am curious about this shimming as well...would be interested in knowing where you fit the shims...

[dmr]

thanks Sydneykid and Grunter for the informative posts.

my mechanic says it may be the control arms that are putting everything out, so i'm going to take them out to see the condition of them and replace if necessary.

will update on how that goes.

[Grunter]

Garry my car is the same as Daves in his profile unless his profile isn't up to date so I assume its a 93 R32

gts he is referring, caster/camber would make it the front so yes I can speak for experience for this model

only not other skylines as I was answering Daves question .We can agree to disagree till the cows come

home,You are more than welcome and invited to come over to my place as I know you don't live that

far from me and have a look for yourself in person.I have a wheel alingment machine at home which is

accurate and true we check it all the time.I can set it up ready for you if your keen to have a look and

I can show you all measurements before and after my mods (All written down in my records).I might

add that this is something that only a mechanic / tech should do NOT for someone unskilled or untrained.

[Sydneykid]

Garry my car is the same as Daves in his profile unless his profile isn't up to date so I assume its a 93 R32

gts he is referring, caster/camber would make it the front so yes I can speak for experience for this model

only not other skylines as I was answering Daves question .We can agree to disagree till the cows come

home,You are more than welcome and invited to come over to my place as I know you don't live that

far from me and have a look for yourself in person.I have a wheel alingment machine at home which is

accurate and true we check it all the time.I can set it up ready for you if your keen to have a look and

I can show you all measurements before and after my mods (All written down in my records).I might

add that this is something that only a mechanic / tech should do NOT for someone unskilled or untrained.

The bit that really interests me is the "too much negative camber after lowering only 20 mm". What are the centre of wheel to guard measurements? This is relevant, for 2 reasons, firstly because it shouldn't happen. Secondly, and arguably more importantly, the height effects what you can do in a mechancial sense to correct the excessive camber. The offset bush correction available in an R32 is well over 2 degrees, with both inner and outer excentrics useable on their upper control arms. To require more than 2 degrees of correction either the car is lowered more than 20 mm or it is bent.

As to how, I have had a think about it and I understand what you may have done and you are right, it's not something that I would ever recommend as a DIY solution. There is a PM on the way.

Cheers

Gary

[dmr]

just an update:

i went to Tims Tyres on hume highway campbellfield and they were great, showing me through the process of the wheel alignment. thumbs up to them!

this is the front info from the data sheet after the wheel alignment:

left camber: -2.37 deg
right camber: -2.83 deg

left caster: 4.79 deg
right caster: 5.84 deg

left toe: 0.4mm
right toe: 0.4mm
total toe: 0.9mm

the car still pulls to the left slightly under braking and quick accelerating, which is the problem i'm trying to fix.

before i done the alignment, i changed my front castor rods to perfectly straight ones, and the front lower control arms to R33 ones. (which give negative camber)

you can visually see that the castor on the left is closer to the sideskirt, and that the wheel is tucked into the guard slightly, whereas the castor on the right side is in the centre and the wheel is almost flush with the guard.

what i'm asking is does anyone know what could be slightly out to cause this?

this whole situation is doing my head in and i want to fix it properly, without the help of adjustable aftermarket parts.

Edited April 24, 2008 by dmr

[Sydneykid]

just an update:

i went to Tims Tyres on hume highway campbellfield and they were great, showing me through the process of the wheel alignment. thumbs up to them!

this is the front info from the data sheet after the wheel alignment:

left camber: -2.37 deg
right camber: -2.83 deg

left caster: 4.79 deg
right caster: 5.84 deg

left toe: 0.4mm
right toe: 0.4mm
total toe: 0.9mm

the car still pulls to the left slightly under braking and quick accelerating, which is the problem i'm trying to fix.

before i done the alignment, i changed my front castor rods to perfectly straight ones, and the front lower control arms to R33 ones. (which give negative camber)

you can visually see that the castor on the left is closer to the sideskirt, and that the wheel is tucked into the guard slightly, whereas the castor on the right side is in the centre and the wheel is almost flush with the guard.

what i'm asking is does anyone know what could be slightly out to cause this?

this whole situation is doing my head in and i want to fix it properly, without the help of adjustable aftermarket parts.

Drift to the left (gutter) is caused by a lack of caster on the LHS, I always aim for MORE caster on the LHS than the RHS.

Less caster on the left is very, very, very common. The LHS front wheel is the one that hits the gutter, rocks, stones, bottles etc accumulate on the left and the biggest potholes are always on the left. This causes the LHS front wheel to be pushed back a little bit at a time, every time the car has hits something a little bit more caster is lost. The front subframe twists a little, the mounts bend, the bushes get deflected, the rods straighten, it all adds up.

Measure the wheelbase, down the LHS and then the RHS, centre of front wheel to centre of rear wheel. You will see the LHS is shorter than the RHS, 1 degree of caster is around 10 mm.

The answer is simple and done every single day in workshops everywhere. Fit adjustable bushes to the front of the radius rods, they have eccentric crush tubes which are rotated to give the desired caster correction. Cost around $200 supplied and fitted and wheel aligned.

You don't want to do that? Ok then, the answer is to give your car to a panel beater and ask him to put it on the rack and stretch it. If you can find someone willing to do it and are preapred to pay the cost, then you migh just get enough out of it to correct the difference. But as you drive it it will gradually slip back to it's old shape, eventually you will have to take it back for another pull. The other downside is the stretching process may well increase the LHS door gaps a little and you might find the door locks need adjusting and new seals are required to fill the gaps.

That's why everyone uses adjustable bushes, it's the best, cheapest, most effective, ongoing adjustable and permanent solution.

Cheers

Gary

[dori34]

seems like someone doesn't like going down the path of adjustable bits

[Grunter]

Sydneykid is right better of getting adjustable fresh new bush kits that way everything is firm and more responsive

steering and room for future improvements.Although I did get a small amount of adjustment from shims in the end

I wouldn't reccomend it Garry is right . Im now thinking of upgrading my set up as I get more into track days I will

need more adjustment to further enhance my wheel alignments.It does make a huge difference to the feel of the

car with new bush's

[Hibino]

Why would you waste the time and money doing that when you can just use adjustable parts?

[dmr]

Drift to the left (gutter) is caused by a lack of caster on the LHS, I always aim for MORE caster on the LHS than the RHS.

Less caster on the left is very, very, very common. The LHS front wheel is the one that hits the gutter, rocks, stones, bottles etc accumulate on the left and the biggest potholes are always on the left. This causes the LHS front wheel to be pushed back a little bit at a time, every time the car has hits something a little bit more caster is lost. The front subframe twists a little, the mounts bend, the bushes get deflected, the rods straighten, it all adds up.

Measure the wheelbase, down the LHS and then the RHS, centre of front wheel to centre of rear wheel. You will see the LHS is shorter than the RHS, 1 degree of caster is around 10 mm.

The answer is simple and done every single day in workshops everywhere. Fit adjustable bushes to the front of the radius rods, they have eccentric crush tubes which are rotated to give the desired caster correction. Cost around $200 supplied and fitted and wheel aligned.

You don't want to do that? Ok then, the answer is to give your car to a panel beater and ask him to put it on the rack and stretch it. If you can find someone willing to do it and are preapred to pay the cost, then you migh just get enough out of it to correct the difference. But as you drive it it will gradually slip back to it's old shape, eventually you will have to take it back for another pull. The other downside is the stretching process may well increase the LHS door gaps a little and you might find the door locks need adjusting and new seals are required to fill the gaps.

That's why everyone uses adjustable bushes, it's the best, cheapest, most effective, ongoing adjustable and permanent solution.

Cheers

Gary

thank you very much gary for your informative post.

i do understand that over time things can go out a little, but what i didn't mention is that my car has had a tap from the front passenger side before i brought the car, on the angle between the bumper bar and the guard. it wasn't a big hit, but it may have made that little difference.

i'm going to go and see my panel beater and see if he can organise for my car to go on a jig and see all the measurements.

a mechanic said that it may be a bent/wrecked hub because of the left wheel not being flush with the guard as the right one is, but i have a feeling it may be the subframe/crossmember that's causing this, otherwise if that fails i think it may be my strut tower. a friend who is well into his technical side of things says that if it was the strut tower, i would have noticed the suspension difference, and the shocks would have made noises due to strain or wear already.

i'll see what i can organise and keep you posted, once again thanks for your help!

seems like someone doesn't like going down the path of adjustable bits

to me that's a bandaid fix, i prefer to do it properly.

Sydneykid is right better of getting adjustable fresh new bush kits that way everything is firm and more responsive

steering and room for future improvements.Although I did get a small amount of adjustment from shims in the end

I wouldn't reccomend it Garry is right . Im now thinking of upgrading my set up as I get more into track days I will

need more adjustment to further enhance my wheel alignments.It does make a huge difference to the feel of the

car with new bush's

i don't think i'm going to go down the path of shims now, but thanks buddy for your input

Why would you waste the time and money doing that when you can just use adjustable parts?

because i'm a paranoid perfectionist, and want everything fixed right the first time.

i'll give you an example: i don't use cable ties. everything must be mounted properly.

cheers.

[Hibino]

Fixed right? Bandaid fix?

Hmm seems a bit strange to me but different strokes...

That's like rebuilding and hi-flowing a stock turbo instead of just buying a brand new aftermarket one.

[Sydneykid]

because i'm a paranoid perfectionist, and want everything fixed right the first time.

i'll give you an example: i don't use cable ties. everything must be mounted properly.

cheers.

My last words on this subject;

Manufacturers use cable ties.

Nissan includes adjusters as standard ie; rear camber, front and rear toe. So having adjustment is part of the package that you already have. Nissan admits that the car needs alignment adjustment ie; they are not perfectly straight, even when new.

I would argue that using a rack to stretch bent parts is hardly doing it "right the first time". They are bent from their original shape, and consequenlty have lost some rigidity. When you attempt to straighten them you reduce that rigidity even further. They will bend easier the next time.

The most common damage is to the mounting points of the subframe, where they bolt to the main chassis. Replacing the subframes may fix the problem, but it is by far in the minority of cases. if it needs a substantial pull, then you run the risk of damaging the bolt up points, the captive nuts etc.

My guess is you are looking at $400 to $700 attempting to fix a problem that would be technically better fixed with a $200 adjustable solution. Most of all, the latter is a guaranteed result, the former is a gamble.

Cheers

Gary