short shifters? yes or no?

[performance-wise]

I have got myself a C's copy and before installing it I wanna know more about them.

Ive been driving manuals for about 18 years now and I consider myself to be pretty good at changes and driving in general. I can snap into gear pretty good without grinding or missing. I have never used a short shifter and I think it is what I am seeking to improve my driving skills and my times by a margin.

Ive searched the forum for info on short shifters. Ive checked out pranks D.I.Y installation and also his thread about his C's original short shifter snapping about 5 months later.

Ive read that some people gain excess noise form the gear box after installation and some dont. Most people reckon that the difference in shift is worth it.

I would like to know;

If they are bad for syncros?

Is the gear completely engaged due to the reduction?

Am I gonna fu(k my box from having it installed?

I was hoping for some insight from lads like sydneykid or from those that may have had first hand experience with short shifters - especially C's copies.

I can also get onto nismo short shifters:

Nismo short shift kit with bushing:

BNR32, BCNR33, HNR32, ENR33, ENR34 = AUD500.00 (think these are 30%)

Nismo short shift :

BNR32, BCNR33 = AUD250.00 (think these are 10%)

Order time for these parts is about 4 weeks

Are the prices for the nismo kits any good?? Would I be better off with a nismo kit??

All responses appreciated and respected.

[GTRman1992]

I drove my mates R32 GTR for the first time the other week and straight away noticed how nice the shift was. He said it had a short shifter kit, but I cannot recall what brand.

[ylwgtr2]

theres nothing wrong with them as far as i am concerned........As far as half going into gear...well it doesnt work that way.....the shifter comes with a spacer that lifts up the pivot piont of the socket arrangement so the distance the lever on the bottom end of the socket is the just a tad longer...the noise actually comes from the pivot point being that tad longer,it actually pushs too far into gear and the noise is the gear mesh travelling through the shift fork/drum and shift shafts....you can simulate the sound on a vehicle without a short shift kit by pushing on the lever that little bit extra toward the gear that you are in....

[ylwgtr2]

i personally dont beleive they cause synchro ring failure....the fact is the gears are closer together not only forward and backwards but left to right more so.......so infact these make selecting gear a little more difficult.....especially when theres six gears involved........so mis shifts are more likely to happen.....i have rebuilt a number of skyline gearbox's from 32's through to the R34 6 speed getrag's and i would be confident in saying that 90 percent have had troubles due to driver error more than anything....another important factor is using the correct oil in them

[performance-wise]

ylwgtr2 - thnx for your insight. got any recommendations for good gear box oil?

I was looking into elf 55w 8o - is this any good?

[ylwgtr2]

most definatly genuine gearbox oil.....

[performance-wise]

anyone else had any experiences with short shifters??

[performance-wise]

Ok - im diggin up my old thread but maybe this info can help someone that was in my situation.

Straight up - Dont buy cheap-shit C's copies!!

I got one from a cheapie seller on the forum and they are crap!

I recieved the shifter eventually but;

- was missing a bolt

- missing nylon bit for the tip

- missing nylon spacer

- missing rubber boot (did recieve zip ties though :confused: )

- designed to suit RB20 and SR20 boxes

- rattled and made a shitload of noise

- chrome painted surface which chipped off into my box

- absolutely no reduction in shift!!!

I searched forums and the web and I dont think cheap copies are even made to suit RB25 boxes!!

Eventually got a brand new original C's shifter to suit R33 gtst, all necassary components were included, installed within 20 minutes and damn does it shift quick!! very happy.

Dont be a scrooge when buying for your line guys - in the long run you are better of with reputable quality products.

my 2c's.

[3R1K]

I just change my shifter to C's original short shifter, it's smoother than original shifter and it's much shorther.

I did everything by myself , there is no dramas at all, instruction says everything clearly.

It took me 40 minutes to install (I'm a noob )

Erik

[Lepperfish]

Yeah I have an original Cs short shifter and no dramas here.. Feels really tight and makes the box feel stronger then standard..

I heard the Cs short shifts werent in production anymore, how much did you pay for yours?

[performance-wise]

I dont think they are in production any more and they arent that easy to find.

I got mine through greenline for $460 delivered. pricey yes but very good quality.

I have contacted them about a group buy for SAU. Dunno if I'd get much interest from the forum cos they arent cheap.

[Sydneykid]

I haven't been paying much attention to this thread but then this post popped up......

Ok - im diggin up my old thread but maybe this info can help someone that was in my situation.

Straight up - Dont buy cheap-shit C's copies!!

I got one from a cheapie seller on the forum and they are crap!

I recieved the shifter eventually but;

- was missing a bolt

- missing nylon bit for the tip

- missing nylon spacer  

- missing rubber boot (did recieve zip ties though :confused: )

- designed to suit RB20 and SR20 boxes

- rattled and made a shitload of noise

- chrome painted surface which chipped off into my box    

- absolutely no reduction in shift!!!

I searched forums and the web and I dont think cheap copies are even made to suit RB25 boxes!!

Eventually got a brand new original C's shifter to suit R33 gtst, all necassary components were included, installed within 20 minutes and damn does it shift quick!! very happy.

Dont be a scrooge when buying for your line guys - in the long run you are better of with reputable quality products.

my 2c's.

Oh no, I have one of those.....and I haven't installed it yet. So here I am....

The first thing is how does a short shifter work?

The concept is to change the movement ratio between the gear knob and the gear linkage. So that the gear linkage moves the same amount, but the gearknob moves less. The idea beeing that if you move your hand a shorter distance then the shift will be quicker, for the same hand speed. But if the gear linkage is already moving as fast as the synchros will allow engagement, then you get no increase in shft speed. You just move your hand less.

Changing the movement ratio is achieved by having a longer portion of the lever below the pivot point and a shorter portion above it. The reduction in gearknob movement is directly proportional to the change in this ratio. For example, a 10% increase in the length of the lever below the pivot point and a 10% shorter portion above it will result in ~10% reduction in the gear knob movement.

It is obviously easy to shorten the lever above the pivot. The gearlinkage (selector shaft) can't be moved however, so in order to get a longer distance below the pivot, you have to move the pivot up to make space. That's why the short sifter kits come with a spacer to move the pivot upwards.

Some time ago I bought an RB25 gearbox for the R32GTST which didn't come with a shifter, so I bought one of the ones gR33ddy described above. It doesn't come with the plastic tip and spacer, you are supposed to use the ones in your gearbox. But my gearbox didn't have them. The shifter was missing the lock nut that enables you to orientate the gear knob, I found one that fitted. You are supposed to use the standard rubber boot, that's what the cable ties are for. Without the plastic tip and spacer I can't tell if it is an RB25 one or an RB20/SR20. It looks to to be the right diameter, but if it is too small (as in SR/RB size) then it will surely rattle like gR33ddy described. It's the last bit that worries me "- absolutely no reduction in shift!!!".

Having looked at the lever itself and the spacer that lifts the pivot point, I can't see how it won't reduce the shift. But until I compare it with a standard shifter I can't tell by how much.

So would anybody be willing to loan or sell me a genuine standard RB25 gear lever (I will need the plastic tip and spacer anyway)?. I will then do the measurements and post up the dimensions. That way, in future, everyone will be able to tell how much "shorter" their short shifter is going to be. I don't want it for nothing and I will pay for the postage.

Post it up here or PM

[GTR-Ben]

I have had a good short shift kit on a GTR. It did make the gear stick movement less.. but I hated it.

It made the gears a lot harded to hit or miss.. I blame it for me destroying a good OS Giken box

With a stock gearstick.. it works and feels good.

[makaveli]

I test drove a 32 gts-t for a mate who ended up buying the car.

Im not sure on what brand the short shift it is, although I must say it felt great!!!!

Im contemplating on finding one for my 32

Can they cause harm on the gearbox like some people say.

[Sydneykid]

Can they cause harm on the gearbox like some people say.

The short shifter itself can not cause harm to the gearbox. It simply changes the ratio between how far your hand moves (on the gear knob) and how far the linkage moves. Obviously, it also increases the amount of effort you have to exert to move the gear lever (there is less leverage after all).

It is worth pointing out at this point that the selector forks do not move any more or any less with a short shifter installed. They still go just as far "in to" and "out of" gear. This is controlled by the detents and the synchro hubs. The gear lever is irrelevant. As ylwgtr2 pointed out, you can over extend the synchro hubs by pushing on the gearlever with your hand while a gear is engaged. But that is again the same for short and standard shifters.

The only way you can get damage to the gearbox is if you stuff up the gearchanges. If you try and shift faster than the synchros will allow, then you most certainly will damage them. But that is no different whether you have a short shifter or a long shifter. It might be a bit easier to "beat the synchros", but that is still driver error. Although some would argue it is in fact harder to stuff up as you need to exert more effort to move the lever and you get better feed back. So you can better feel the synchros engaging.

I had a few minutes spare this morning (while the guys were loading up the race cars) to measure the short shifter. It has a 16 mm spacer ring which moves the pivot point up by 16 mm. Since the gearshift linkage rod is in the same place, this means the shifter is 16mm longer from the pivot point to the point of engagement with the linkage. It is ~58 mm so the standard shifter would have been ~42mm. If the gearlever is the same length from the pivot point to the knob (as the standard lever) this would mean a ~20% reduction in gearknob movement for the same amount of shift linkage movement. This is using a common length (for both short and standard shifters) from the pivot point to the gearknob of 200 mm. If I remember rightly that was what was advertised, a 20% reduction in shift movement.

Hope that makes some sense.

PS; if anyone has a standard RB25DET shifter they want to lend for measurement, it would be greatly appreciated.

[performance-wise]

Ive still got the original shifter but the plastic tip is stuffed!

I posted in the wanted section a couple of weeks ago trying to find one but had no response.

I can send it to you if you want. PM me ur details.

[GTR-Ben]

The reason that make it easier to break gearboxes is because the shortshifter not only makes the throw less, it also makes the room for error less when going from 2nd to 3rd etc..

So now, not only are you pulling the gearstick faster, you have to pull it harder as the stick is shorter, you also need to be more accurate.. this combination makes it a lot easier to miss a gear.

In my case, I think I just changed to fast for the syncros which blew the box..

[someonestolecc]

A little OT but I have installed a short shift (copy of C's or some home brand type) - it's a solid brass one and I don't see it snapping or anything and it really does make the box feel a LOT nicer. Unfortunately sometimes the stick itself gets too hot to touch (which makes quick gear changes a must and stops you from resting your hand on the shifter heh heh)

Just one question - how do you tell if you're going too fast for the syncro?

[Lepperfish]

You'll hear it!

[performance-wise]

Does anyone know the difference between a shifter for RB25 and RB20?

Can you fit a RB20 short shifter in a RB25 box?

The fool who sold me the crappy shifter is trying to tell me that there is no difference and only the bolt lengths are different?