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Everything posted by Lithium
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I've also heard mention that E85 "sounds different" to detonation on petrol, and is very hard to identify. I've done some tuning on ethanol blends and never heard it (I use a G4 Knockblock) though haven't YET used exhaust temp monitoring... admittedly the only car I've tuned on E85 was naturally aspirated and 13:1 compression so potentially not likely to get knock before MBT anyway. Has anyone identified detonation tuning E85 yet? And can they confirm if it "sounds" the same as petrol det?
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I'd be very interested in playing with one. I've tried to convince a guy I have been doing tuning for to buy one as he's a bit tight for cash but has accumulated all the supporting mods necessary but after going in my car he isn't interested in anything but what I had on mine and would rather save a little longer and get it. Again, thats with me trying to sell the Kando - but given I am fussy and destined to buy the best I think I can get to suit my purpose, I can't see a Kando ever fitting into that for any future endevours. If someone gave me one, I'm sure I'd find a way of getting it something to do though lol
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There seem to be interesting views on that, I was actually reading an article on someone who was previously running a Trust T67-25G kit and swapped to a "GT3037" type setup and got better overall performance - there might have been a slight power reduction possibly, but it seemed the spool and response was in that case considered to more than make up for it. Doesn't surprise me at all that the GT3040 got all around beat. The T67s deliver really good performance for the price though, results wise it seems like its a case of "what do you want more" which is good when one is cheaper. I'd love to see a T67-25G vs a FP HTA GT3076R, which is currently my choice of the moment for an RB25DET
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[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos
Lithium replied to Lithium's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
Its not an American dyno, its a Dynapack- the same as a lot of the dynos used in Oz and NZ. Tbh Oz Dyno Dynamics I trust one of the least, they seem to have a ridiculous range of results - some of which way higher than hub dynos (should see some of the sheets UK forumers post!). -
[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos
Lithium replied to Lithium's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
Here are some results for a twin scroll internally gated EFR8374 on a K20A Honda, with both pump gas and C16 results. I personally think that most of the results which haven't resulted in failure on the medium frame EFRs are still not showing anything to separate themselves from the other good turbos on the market at this stage. http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=97724 This is definitely a good result, however - and I find it interesting they chose not to show the power figures of the other turbos they had boost plots for either. -
Interesting, will actually have to look at them a bit more for informations sake if nothing else
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I might have a nosy later and see if there is anything I feel like sharing, as I use that mode in all the G4 tuning I've do - as well as other fun things you might find interesting such as switching fuel and ignition maps in real time (on VTEC Hondas) etc. Fwiw when you download the G4 software you get a bunch of sample maps anyway - SOME of those have the open loop fuel mode enabled as is. Can't really comment as I've not done an SD car yet, though the G4 cars I've done have typically taken similar or more time to get other configuration bits sorted (that aren't specifically fuel table related - ie, cold start/accel enrichment etc) than to actually get the car running and driveable. Same would apply for the G4 with the method I described of course, with the added advantage that (providing you configure the O2 sensor setup correctly) it also has support for using input Flexifuel sensors for fuel and ignition trim
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G4 Link ECUs can be configured to similar effect - not quite as refined as that, but still a lot nicer than just having an outright pulsewidth table. Firstly, the fuel tables when using MAP as the load value actually are mapped relative to atmospheric – so you effectively are mapping all load zones as though they are at “sea level” atmospheric pressure, then the ECU calculates up or down based on what the load line actually is. If you see a G4 Link fuel table with numbers roughly twice as big around the 200kpa load zones as at 100kpa, then there are probably quite serious issues with the tune. Secondly, there is a mode called “Open Loop Fuel” or something like that (I don’t have the Link software in front of me) which when enabled – does a similar type of offsetting, but this time it treats ALL fuel values as though you have tuned the entire map to suit stoich. The ECU then refers to the “Target AFR” table which is normally used for self tune and closed loop lambda to scale the numbers up or down to suit the actual target AFR you require for that load cell. Sure, its not as nice as speed density tuning but really to me the main benefit for SD tuning, and this for that matter – is that you don’t have a map which is “all over the place” due to required pulsewidths going up in non-linear fashions due to load and AFR targets. Makes mapping that much easier, and you’re going to have to piss around with the base numbers a bit at various load levels regardless to get them running nicely.
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Will you be using normal petrol or E85?
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Just Brought R33 Gtst With Rb3025 , Gt35R Etc
Lithium replied to BMYHOE's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
Will be quite interesting to see how it goes -
Yep, I already confirmed that There was a testimony which I quoted from someone who put a GT3076HTA onto his RB25 - the evo is a different air pump but the relative performance results are going to give a reasonable indication of what to expect. The turbo is not that wildly different from ones which are known quantities on RBs already, it just takes good and makes it better.
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If a .82a/r GTX3582R is going to be too laggy then I suspect a GTX3582R is the wrong turbo for you in the first place, to be honest - going .63 is probably pointless.
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Yeah it is, I figured if you were talking gt35r over a gtx30 you must have enough room for the big housing
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Above is a dyno plot of David Buschur's own car (2.3litre)running a FP GT3076R HTA completely maxed out on E85. For those who don't know, he is one of the EVO tuning/building kings - if I did an EVO, I'd be tempted to get him to send one of his motors over.... most "too good to be true" results come from motors built by him, regardless of who installed and tuned them later. Mustang dynos are not "typical US" dynos either, much more in line with Dyno Dynamics - his dyno is regarded all over US as a heart breaker. The EFR7670 setup posted in another thread which made >600hp on a Dynapack later ended up in Buschur's shop and struggled to pass 550whp, the single entry GT3076R HTA in his opinion matches or betters the the EFR7670 in all fronts and I am so far struggling to find a way to doubt this. His quote on this turbo after testing it:
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Well the FP HTA series has been around longer (ie, more proven) and have a wider range in the same footprint. Best of all, the entire range (like for like) seem to quite happily outperform the GTX from what I've seen. They have HTA versions of the GT3076R, GT3082R, GT3582R, as well as a GT3586R and a GT3794R If you aren't shy about winding the crap out of the boost on E85 there is a good chance you could be looking at in the range of 440rwkw for the HTA GT3076R (with no more lag than you have), to near 600rwkw for the GT3794R on a good flowing manual transmission engine setup.
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Any chance one of the turbos randomly failing at the same time all this happens could cause these symptoms?
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Yeah I don't like them as a preference - but they'd be one of the cheapest options on the list. Other things in a similar price range will likely be other interceptors which will have similar issues, or something which doesn't have "the whole package" included and likely to have extra costs and work involved in getting a fully functional solution which eats into the value for money imho. I've been most impressed with Link G4 Atom as a semi-budget solution, still a quite powerful ECU - and sounds more than capable of what you are after by the looks of it.
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You realise 14.7psi on a 1JZ Commodore ute and 14.7psi on say a 1EFTE Corolla are also way different? Fwiw, if you are doing a reasonable amount of work with a car and suspect you will have it for a while - seriously I don't think you should skimp on the ECU, especially if you anticipate learning. I personally found the G4 Link software quite intuitive , there is a LOT of adjustability which can mean a lot to track down and keep an eye on - but with tuning ignorance isn't bliss IMHO. The help system is pretty good, and again its worth getting a good look over what there is going on and what needs to be considered. I've done a reasonable amount of playing around with a GReddy E-Manage Ultimate and they seem pretty good, albeit being a pita not running on Windows 7 systems (well, last time I tried to install it on one). I've tuned an NA Honda on E85 to make >190kw using one and it drives more or less like stock and makes the numbers, so they can do the job - there is the bonus that the factory closed loop, diagnostic and knock systems remain in place as well. On the down side, you end up (whether you like it or not) getting well familiar with how the ECU you are signal intercepting for does its thing and have to/should leave a margain of error you may not need to worry so much about with if you had full say on what is actually doing. They are quite easy to set up, just make sure you understand what is actually happening when you tinker with whatever you go for as the potential for fail is high.
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That's exactly what the story seems to be... Which amounts to you get what you pay for
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Fly over, have a rum with us. I'll check with my mate who had his need a premature rebuild was a TD06SL2/T60-1 hybrid... can't remember what the problem was but I am pretty sure I remember him putting it down to "Thats the risk you take when you use cheap stuff", got it rebuilt and it was fine afterwards and still uses version 2 being philosophical about the fact it was still not a hugely expensive exercise.
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Whats going on in NZ is I know enough people here to hear the good and the bad, not everyone live on forums. I'm not saying its BW EFR levels of failure, but more frequent than your typical Garrett/Holset/BW turbo so far. In regards to "not wow" I think he was talking in regards to outright performance, not price. The price is really good for what you get, but its still "for what you get" so far.
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I don't know which turbos you are talking about the Kandos being half as much as, but fwiw we acquired a S300SX 83/75 for $100 more than a Kando T67 would have cost to land, and the same goes for genuine Garrett T3/T60-1s and other things... given the failure rates I've seen for the Kandos have been higher than for the journal bearing Garretts and Borg Warners over here (for whatever reason) its hard to sell them too strong when you KNOW you can count on the Garretts etc. I am impressed with them, but try and stay realistic at the same time.
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Interesting, this was tuned on petrol? Sounds like a good result anyway, some vid footage would be good too How does it compare with the old fabled +T? I bet it goes well, too!
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Not bad at all, got dyno plot? This is +T eh?
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[Closed] Borg Warner Efr Series Turbos
Lithium replied to Lithium's topic in Engines & Forced Induction
Just to try and balance this out, and remind folks that these things do still have potential to be something special - a couple of recent vids from a car with a relatively small EFR6758: Trapping at nearly 137mph on 29psi, E85: And not particularly laggy: