Lithium

I think there are "street" tyred Supras in the low 8s... if not almost quicker! Probably not Federals hahaha... but still. Supras have definately proved their worth on the track as well.... the 2JZ > RB26 for power making potential, that has been proven time and time again - in both stockish form, and with the works.

Theres a good question.... whole new can of worms even :uh-huh: I'd got with the Series 8 FD myself

Nononono.... the manual Supras are all under 1500kg, R32 GTR is ~1480kg, the rest are above 1500kg - and the Supras have less drivetrain losses. I've been in a couple of lightly modded JZA80 Supras, and in various GTRs from stock standard to VERY modded - and I've got to say in terms of in gear acceleration, in my experience an R32 GTR with intake, exhaust, 1bar and tuned PFC is probably comparative to a Supra with intake and exhaust on stock ECU. On a track strip the R32 would make the Supra look stupid though.

WTF? A Skyline is every bit a tourer if not more so than a Supra - being that it has more sizable rear seats. The Supra is lighter than GT-Rs, in some cases by near 100kg. Supras make more power than the equivalent mod GT-Rs, so that paired up with more gears, lighter weight and a much more solid power delivery you end up with something that accelerates pretty awesomely hard. Sure, a GT-R is typically quicker down the drag strip - but I've seen a nice video of a GTR and a Supra with similar mods (Best Motoring) doing a standing km race with 1/4mile marked off. The GTR got to the 1/4 mile mark first, and the Supra walked past it not long afterwards... making the gap bigger and bigger as it goes. I'd prefer a GT-R, but thats just because of taste - the "Concept" of the Supra I prefer... stronger bigger engine in a lighter chassis, I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with ATTESA.

Yes, but looking at your sig - you've gone and backed up what I have said by posting that yours did low 13s at 103mph with ~146awkw. I am pretty confident that your car would have not been completely stock at that point, right? That point I am on about is that the acceleration force is probably similar but the GTiRs have traction, and can apply full throttle through first and second gears helping the average acceleration - but thats not because of gearing or power delivery. Unless your car was as exactly as Nissan released it from factory when you ran that trap speed, the odds are the trap speed debate is sorted

Yep, I have heard about most of those things. I also happen to know someone in NZ that ran a 12.8 @ ~109mph, running intake exhaust and front mount stock intercooler pushing 18psi through the stock turbo with an interesting mix of 98 + other stuff to get ~100octane, which is pushing it a lot harder than what you mention - but all the same is a better time with little mods than you'd get with a 25t. Most of the other stuff you have said is completely inconsistant with stuff I have seen in NZ, and seeing as I've had a few friends who owned GTiRs (moved on long since) and recommended them to people, I have a healthy respect for them and know what they can do. However, non of this equates to 12s or 109mph trap speeds with minimal mods. I managed to equal and out power 2 GTiRs at seperate dyno days in my old car - ~140kw @ wheels for all times, and there were also a couple of R32 GTSts making that kind of power at these dyno days. My old car weighed 1260kg, and struggled to break 100mph, and the GTSts didn't break 100mph on the 1/4. How does it work that a GTiR which weighs not much less (no less than my old car) than a GTSt, manages around 10mph faster trap speeds with less time to get there with the same power? Having said that, one of the guys apparently did a 13.3 @ 100mph - with exhaust and 10psi, so the ET part of the story sounds realistic... the trap speeds seem way out though. Were they done at the strip or on a GTech type device?

Absolutely - I agree Please refer to the post I made which says they are slow? One of the points I was on about is that makes them seem faster than say a GTS25t is the same fact that makes them break.... I also agree on the stock for stock, but maybe with a few boltons things will change in a top end race. You CANT compare a 4WD with a RWD for dragtimes if you want to know what they accelerate. I feel I am quite justify thinking that my car which has now got intake,exhaust, 10psi of boost and a bit of tuning will walk away from a GTiR with the same mods - I will have a trap speed to refer to this weekend with my current mods. I also will be the first to admit that a GTiR with intake and exhaust would probably match the kind of time I am hoping for, however when we cross the finish line I will probably have a bigger smile on my face and a firmer push in the back... Its all about what you want in a car. I actually quite like GTiRs, but I feel that GTiR owners on here are implying that they are more than they are. Unless in Australia they are different to in NZ? My 103mph trap was done on a damp track with just a catback exhaust and a pod filter, I don't believe I've heard of any GTiRs trapping that high with those mods and stock boost - even with a lack of mechanical sympathy.

Supras are definately a performance package more solid than the R33 GTS25t, and definately comparable in ways to a GT-R - I've been in a couple of mildly modded ones and they go like stink, the 2JZ being strong enough to handle a lot more as well. However, I can't (personally) stand the styling of them and don't like the extra weight - I'd spend the difference on building an RB30 bottom end for an R33 GTS25t and making that much like a 2JZGTE (I think similar bore/stroke?), but in a car 100kg lighter, more space and is just a car I like more.

They have a LAUNCH! Thats all they have thats that incredibly special, though I guess in NZ we have heaps more nasty Japanese import cars running around on our roads. GTi-Rs are no more special (in most cases, less...) than a WRX, or EVO. They have a huge launch and accelerate fairly well once they get going - seeing as the 60ft time is almost a defining factor of a drag race... that launch means HEAPS. The SR20DET is quite good for making a lot of power, but the power tranmission fuse that is the gearbox isn't so keen on it. I know plenty of people that have owned them, and sold them on for EVOs etc.

Close as buggery to cracking 13s.... if not JUST scratching through.

Yeap, running a JDM H22A from a Gen4 Prelude... rated at 200ps stock @ flywheel. So as to not pollute this thread too much with non GTiR-Skyline stuff, a link from not long after I sold it with other people who know about Hondas and tuning them etc (in it contains a link to EVEN MORE people with Hondas and tuning them). I have been told there is no way my current car makes as much power as it does with the mods it has by non-Nissan owners, I guess its just what you know aye? "Quick" Preludes? "Quick" Preludes 2

Wow, mine weighed 1500kg with me, a full tank of gas, spare tire etc...

There is no such thing as a Type-R Prelude.... so there is part of the problem there. Anyway, I'm only talking basically modded GTiRs as well - as I said early in the thread SR20DETs are very good motors so obviously they can go far, and I moved on because it was just going to cost too much to get so far. It was a lot of fun having an NA car that people who didn't do their homework would underestimate, and this is the same reason I bought an R33 GTS25t - in NZ they are VERY underestimated because basically hardly anyone have worked out what makes them go. Over here the general consensus is there is no comparison between a RB20DET powered R32 GTSt and a RB25DET powered GTS25t, so what you have come to understand about things isn't necessarily all that is right. Obviously Skyline fans are going to know more about fast Skylines, and how to make them quick as that is what they are into, ditto with GTiR fans, and ditto with Honda fans. So really wouldn't people in a Skyline forum probably not be the most certified to say what a 2.2VTEC motor can do, or what a GTiR can do if they haven't actually researched and modified them? I guy I know was running 12s with just front mounted stock intercooler, exhaust and boost - but his trap speeds were still not much over 100mph. Doing 60ft times in the 1.7s helps things along nicely. The basic point I'm making, is yep - *A* Skyline GTS25t has beaten *A* GTiR, doesn't mean all 25ts will beat all GTiRs, and vice versa. Same as *A* NA Prelude has beaten *A* GTS25t, but then the owner of that Prelude went and upgraded to a GTS25t.... also food for thought?

Hahaha, I partly said it to stir the pot - threads like this usually come up from people making assumptions etc. People will bag Skylines etc when they own GTiRs, and vice versa with Skylines bagging GTiRs - there are (like in any instance) too many variables and types of comparisons to rule one car over an other. In a drag situation, an equivalent GTiR should beat a non-GTR Skyline... simple as that, it basically comes down to torque/power/weight and the level of traction. However - in say a 100kph roll on (no sanctioned event I know of does this, however But...) an equivalent GTiR and R33 GTS25t might look a little bit different to how the 1/4 mile drag happened. But then there is always the stand out equivalent of either car. Anyway, despite the pot stirring - I don't take back what I said about my old Prelude... I moved on because you hit a brick wall pretty quickly with an NA 4cyl, unless you are going to spend massive amounts of money - and FWDs are just boring - but a good power to weight ratio with no lag to deal with and a good torque delivery counts for a lot Its highest dyno run was 146fwkw - if 2 cars have similar power, and similar weight, why wouldn't they accelerate at a similar rate?

I never found GTiRs that impressive myself, when compared to WRXs or EVOs at least. My old NA Honda Prelude used to keep up with the basic bolt on ones, and my R33 would make my Prelude look stupid. At 2 dyno days I went to my Honda managed to pip them for power (JUST)... with all the cars putting out 140kw @ wheels. SR20DETs have a lot of potential, but the transmission is not so hot compared to the FR ones Nissan have made. In not-counting-launch situations I can't imagine a GTiR holding me off unless it had quite a number of mods, though down the 1/4 I wouldn't be so confident - though the tracks over here (NZ) are quite slippery which gives the 4WDs a huge advantage.

Yep, but who leaves their cars stock?? I think the more you mod them, the more that order changes....

OK, the reason I started defending single turbos is partly because of this point. In NZ Nissans are used by quite a lot of people very regularly for drifting, which is getting to be quite a big thing here. There are countless GTSts, Cefiros, Laurels and Silvias with RB20/25/30DETs running various setups and being thrashed on the track at least monthly (which is quite a bit) as well as being driven on the street, and some used for drag as well. This means that people have had to find combinations which are affortable to setup and maintain, and are able to function in different environments. The reason I mention single turbos, is there is only one twin turbo car used in the NZ drift scene - and drifting is obviously a sport you want good power and DEFINATELY want good response and midrange torque. The car running the twin turbos is a Cefiro with an Rb26DETT running the stock turbos, so its not that he decided to buy aftermarket twins. There is an RB25DET powered Nissan here running an XTR 3040 (afaik rated to happily over 500hp) and is on one of the top drifters car, and its blatently obvious that the guy has all the midrange power and torque that he needs with little compromise considering. I'm not 100% sure what would parallel this turbo in terms of twins, but I'm pretty sure it would cost quite a bit more to go down that path - and you obviously have twice as many things to break.

I understand that, but the comparison (aside from N1 turbos apparently) were between a plain bearing type turbo vs. twin ball bearing type. Shouldn't the comparison be between a single and twin turbo of similar technology? ie, twin GT2530s vs. a GT3040 or something like that?

Aren't the big singles that are being discussed here plain bearing, as opposed to the HKS GT-series and the N1 turbos which are all ball bearing, afaik? Wouldn't that mean that the drivability/torque delivery is more to do with turbo technology than being twin vs. single?

The main bit that caught my attention was between 90 and 110kph there is a "bump" which I didn't really see the same in the hub dyno plot, maybe its just me not being used to the different scale the plots are shown on :|

Are you talking about the rolling road dyno plot? That one for some reason seems to autoscale to the size of the window and comes out looking real crap - happens when I view it anyway. Try and maximize the window?! And yeah - the peak power drop isn't what bothers me... its known the rolling roads can read 10-15% less at times than a hub dyno, its the shape of the curve which caught my attention.

On a bit of a whim, I ran my car at a dyno day using a rolling road dyno (a Torque Performance one) to see how it went. All my other runs had been on a Dynapack hub dyno, but had been curious as to how the two would compare etc. The results were relatively interesting. The only things that have changed is that when the hub dyno run happened, it was peaking at 11.3psi and it was dropping boost quite badly in the high revs - the rolling road run was peaking at 10.5psi. During the first run on the rolling road, the rears lit up so I had to do another run with someone sitting in the boot to try and keep it stable - but the power curve looks quite different to the hub dyno curve. Could it have been been scuffing on the rollers? Tuning way out? Or just the way a different dyno reacts? Hub dyno run: And rolling road run is attached.

A leak somewhere? Maybe even on the hose to the boost gauge?

Basically, no - they are of a completely different configuration... it is highly unlikely you have them unless you have a custom plenum or at least some kind of custom fuel rail adapted to your factory plenum/inlet manifold.

Power levels mean a lot, its the actual amount of time you spend putting out the highest % of that power which makes you fast though. Having huge power and not being able to use more than 60% of it for 50% of your time on the strip is an absolute waste of time, but then having bugger all power and being able to put down 90% of it 100% of the time is not necessarily going to be that great either.