Computer Jargon

[Cubes]

Im with Rolls..

1066mhz with a reasonable brand ram (not yum cha) and your laughing. 1:1 and that leaves you with a 533fsb. Chances are you will hit the chips fsb wall if not the m/boards before you can max out 533.

There's simply no need to overclock ram these days. Most importantly the new Intel systems really do not see huge benefits as the amd or older systems used to by squeezing the ram

Intel systems do not feel the pain from slightly higher latency as the AMD systems do.

Good brand ram is perfectly fine. Thrash it in memtest (5 & 8) if its good its good.

I've had a good run with a-data and kingston for friends/familys and even my own PC. In the past yeah I've ran with ocz and corsair but these days its simply not needed unless you really want to pay 4x the cost for 0.05% increase in performance due to the lower latency.

Save your penny's and put it towards a better vid card.

[Rolls]

Sure if he doesn't like to tinker, but they are great overclockers, as long as you don't mess with the volts I don't think you can easily do any damage.

[Hillzy]

Yeah I got a bit of an idea.... decent graphics card, dont worry about SLI or X-fire cause thats shit. the 8800 GT is one of the sweet gfx cards atm, and I think it plays most games at the moment rather well. Get a reputable motherboard, anything over $200 will be decent but if you spend the extra $100 it'll be well worth it. An Intel Core2Quad or a Core2Duo will be the best bet, I think the Q6600 is still a nice price. Dont skimp on ram, something with low latency and a decent brand (like corsair or OCZ) will handle the system nicely. Low latency is more important than ram with a faster front side bus ratio... as for hard drives, I'd recommend getting either 2 SATA-II Hdd's in a Raid 1 Mirror Array OR A WD Raptor 10k rpm drive as your c: And get the two SATA-II 7200 rpm drives as data storage, again in a Raid 1 Mirror. This way if one of the data drives fails you at least have a live backup of your data and can simply replace the dodgy hdd in the series. Theres a lot of cash you can spend on HDD's, it really all depends on how diligent you are when it comes to backing up data. Dont bother with an aftermarket soundcard, the sound chips you get on $300 motherboards usually have 7.1 Dolby audio... get a nice keyboard and mouse, nothing cheap otherwise you'll end up with RSI and carpal tunnel. Get a decent monitor, something with a nice contrast ratio and refresh rate are much more important than size or widescreen... you can get a blue-ray dvd burner if you have loads of money to burn but for now I'd just settle on a dual layer dvd burner cause theres not a huge amount of blue ray stuff out at the moment. If you can reuse stuff from your current PC, bonus. Other thing I would recommend is investing in some extra cooling in the way of silent case fans and perhaps a big aftermarket heatsink and fan. I dont overclock but I've found that having a big HSF combo keeps the system performing silently in the hottest weather. Logitech make nice 5.1 speakers if you're going to invest in some nice audio...

Could go on and on for ages ;P It all depends on what u wanna do and what ur budget is. I don't sell hardware anymore but I've been in the IT game for 15 years now so if you have any questions, shoot me a pm...

-D

Thanks so much for that information, it really helped me out. I won't be so blind and nooby when it comes time for me to walk into an IT store an discuss hardware choices. I did some IT in high school but I couldn't remember much of it but it's coming back to me now! The quality of my build will all come down to a) tax return and b) the mood I'm in when I walk into the store.

The things I think I'll skimp on if I get light-on in the cash department will be the case, HDD and DVD drive. I don't have any important files that need to be backed up so I think I can afford to go basic there. I guess the great thing about computers is everything is so upgradable so maybe later on I can build up to the best.

I have a few questions for you but I've got to run off to play bball now so next time.

Again, thanks for the info!

[Dohmar]

OK Using Pccasegear.com.au as a guideline (cause I'm impartial here...)

CPU - $412 (One of the more expensive Quad Core CPUs)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=7108

Mobo- $329

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...products_id=100

Ram - $207 (Corsair Low Latency, 4 gigs worth)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=7510

HDD For Operating System + Programs - $239 (WD 150gig)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=3095

HDD's for Data Mirroring - 2x $245 = $490 (WD 1 terabyte, mirrored)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=7155

Graphics Card - $735 (Dual core single slot Nvidia)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=7228

Keyboard - $89 (Logitech Gaming KB)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=3028

Mouse - $89 (Logitech Wireless mouse)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=4230

Monitor - $439 (24" BenQ w 5ms latency)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=6057

Speakers - $339 (Logitech 5.1 Dolby)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=6183

Aftermarket CPU Fan - $75 (Thermaltake Orb)

http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_p...roducts_id=5264

This comes to around $3500 before the below essentials. If you have a monitor, speakers, existing HDD's you want to use then you can chop loads off the bill. Re-use as much is practical (unless it'll give you a performance handicap)

Case - Anything with sufficient cooling, expect to pay up to $200

PSU - Anything with 800 watts or more, expect to pay $150 or so

Software - Vista or XP, your choice, between $150 and $800 ;P

Optical Drives - Blu-ray or Dual layer DVD, your choice, between $40 and $500

Those numbers are using good hardware. Not the best/most expensive and not the cheapest. You can check out the product catagories and compare components on a feature by feature basis but I think this would be a nice Mid range system.... it IS $3.5k worth but that'll see you for 2-3 years easily.

-D

[Damo_R34]

You can always grab an external HDD if you skimp on that at first. I think alot of laptops and pc's have rediculous sized HDDs as selling points.

[Madaz]

got sentence structure ah well my bad this isnt the english police thread

for me when i upgrade next im seriously thinking AMD x4 phenom with there hybrid crossfire board the 780g chipset i think it is has like a 3200 ATI onboard gfx chip that pulls like 40fps on cod4 i think

there is a you tube of it

[Dohmar]

There's simply no need to overclock ram these days. Most importantly the new Intel systems really do not see huge benefits as the amd or older systems used to by squeezing the ram

Intel systems do not feel the pain from slightly higher latency as the AMD systems do.

Tweaking latency isnt an overclock. Its a fine tuning. Its not about getting more speed out of the system, moreso how responsive everything is (which in turn does make the system faster).

Think about it. You have ram which needs to discharge, have a pause then recharge. All of that takes time. When you minimise the amount of time >per cycle< then it adds up when you're talking 1066 mhz (1066 million cycles per second). and at $200 for decent 4gb ram, why wouldn't you, when you're going to spend much more on CPU and mobo ?

-D

[Rolls]

you minimise the amount of time >per cycle< then it adds up when you're talking 1066 mhz (1066 million cycles per second).

Sorry but it doesn't add up, go find me a benchmark that shows more then 1-2% increase in real world performance, we aren't talking synthetic ram benchmarks, real world usage. A big CPU overclock you don't even need a benchmark to show how completely obvious it is that its faster.

[Madaz]

way over priced on all those components my personal opinion is there is no need to spend 3.5g on a pc i spent 4g on my last one and what a waste give me like $700 and you can have similar performance maybe couple hundred more haven't done the maths

i paid $1000 for a x1900xtx that isnt worth a fairy bread sandwich now

so imo build cheap but build often dont try and future proof becuase the future changes every 3-6 months

[Rolls]

way over priced on all those components my personal opinion is there is no need to spend 3.5g on a pc i spent 4g on my last one and what a waste give me like $700

Completely agreed, my mate built a system for just over $1k with a e8400, 8800gt, 2gb ram etc, its blistering fast.

If you need big hd and screens etc anything over $2k is a waste of money, if you already have a case and screen I would never spend over $1k. This is assuming you are building it yourself and have access to a copy of windows.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Rolls

[Madaz]

also shop around i know Ben and the rest of us are trying to be helpful but remember at the end of the day its your money and you have to be happy that you spent it wisely

just for instance PC case gear has that CPU for $412 on It estate same CPU $363 or $341 with the condition of buying the Antec Quattro Power Supply $286

now Umart and MSY have that PSU a little cheaper this is where you do your homework and as the e-tailer for discount or to match or better prices a lot will if it means you don't go to there competitor

[Dohmar]

Sorry but it doesn't add up, go find me a benchmark that shows more then 1-2% increase in real world performance, we aren't talking synthetic ram benchmarks, real world usage. A big CPU overclock you don't even need a benchmark to show how completely obvious it is that its faster.

Thats the point. Low latency ram scales when you overclock it.... not to mention a 1-2% increase in >transferred data<. The latency is measured in the amount of time it takes per IO cycle, which translates to snappier memory recall. You can overclock your FSB as much as you want, it still isnt going to make things faster by default, its merely going to have a higher capacity per cycle. You very rarely max out a front side bus unless you're transferring live High Def video uncompressed from a TV tuner, or that sort of application. Playing videogames is not affected by a faster front side bus, IO affects it more. What >does< make a memory overclock worthwhile is the fact that the CPU runs on a multiplier and uses the FSB frequency as a baseline. Back in the old days you used to be able to overclock a CPU without needing to modify the FSB, provided the cycles matched up.

SO eg my old P3 800.... 133mhz fsb = a multiplier of 6. If I changed that to 7, it'd become a 931mhz CPU (based upon the FSB). Since CPU's these days have a fixed multiplier, the only way you can increase that is by amping up the FSB aka 150mhz x 6 = 900mhz. The FSB itself is just a messenger service, its the CPU cycles that make the difference. Its the reason why server hardware runs at a fixed frontside bus (comparitive to desktop systems) but their CPU's are much more expensive because theyre doing a bunch more processing, and handling a lot more IO.

So say you do get 1-2% on a stock system using low latency ram (which isnt expensive and generally comes with a great warranty), if you overclock your 1066fsb to 1200 odd, you're getting a 12% increase on your FSB, which in turns a theoretical 2% gain into a 24% memory bandwidth gain cause its simply able to discharge and recharge faster, get the memory in and get it out again.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,1637776,00.asp A decent read. Summarizes it nicely.

-D

[Dohmar]

also shop around i know Ben and the rest of us are trying to be helpful but remember at the end of the day its your money and you have to be happy that you spent it wisely

just for instance PC case gear has that CPU for $412 on It estate same CPU $363 or $341 with the condition of buying the Antec Quattro Power Supply $286

now Umart and MSY have that PSU a little cheaper this is where you do your homework and as the e-tailer for discount or to match or better prices a lot will if it means you don't go to there competitor

I agree. Shopping around is the best thing u can do, dont ever walk into a single shop and buy everything if you want to save ur dosh. I haven't upgraded my pc for 3 years and I doubt I'll bother for another 2, but by that time I won't mind spending $2k on the stuff cause I know what I'll be using it for. Sure you could get the cheapest quad core cpu, the 8800 instead of the dual 1950's, etc etc but it all depends on how often you'll be upgrading. If you do it every 3-6 months you'd be mad to spend over a grand but if you're going for 2-3 years between stops, then $2-3k isnt too much to ask. I spent $2.2 on my last system and it does everything nowadays except play the best games, adn thats only cause I have an AGP slot and cant upgrade the vidcard to something recent...

Ultimately that was just a guide, hes free to check the unit details and shop around. Could probably get something very comparible for $2k if you shop around, wait a bit or get some lesser specced components. Get rid of the Monitor and the Speakers and he's very nearly there. Change the quad core cpu to the $200 edition, probably will be almost set... just dont skimp on memory or motherboard cause ultimately theyre the backbone of yr system and will dictate what your pc will be able to handle in future.

-D

[Rolls]

I don't think you understand what I am saying Dohmar, what you are saying is correct and I'm not arguing that. The only point for higher fsb ram is so you can push the cpu frequency higher. I was bottlenecked to 2.8ghz or something before my ram was running out of spec and crashing. 1066 ram let me push it to 3.2ghz without it running the ram out of spec and hence it was stable. I agree latency is more important then mhz (to an extent) with ram, however a higher cpu speed is more important than either of these. Cpu mhz increase > ram latency > ram mhz

As for parts I think you will find MSY has a majority of parts cheaper then anywhere else in Australia, its easier to get everything from one local store as well.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Rolls

[Cubes]

Tweaking latency isnt an overclock. Its a fine tuning. Its not about getting more speed out of the system, moreso how responsive everything is (which in turn does make the system faster).

Think about it. You have ram which needs to discharge, have a pause then recharge. All of that takes time. When you minimise the amount of time >per cycle< then it adds up when you're talking 1066 mhz (1066 million cycles per second). and at $200 for decent 4gb ram, why wouldn't you, when you're going to spend much more on CPU and mobo ?

Never suggested tweaking latency was an overclock.

I completely understand the theory behind latency but real world results with the current line of Intel systems simply does not translate.

Everything you have stated is correct in your following posts HOWEVER with the current line of Intel systems they simply do not respond to ram overclocking and lower latency's like the old systems used to.

If you can save a few $$ on ram its well worth pushing the money in to a better vid card or CPU that is more suited to a better/easier overclock.

Most cannot throw $$ at a top line system if they are paying off a house or have a partner.

[Dohmar]

I don't think you understand what I am saying Dohmar, what you are saying is correct and I'm not arguing that. The only point for higher fsb ram is so you can push the cpu frequency higher. I was bottlenecked to 2.8ghz or something before my ram was running out of spec and crashing. 1066 ram let me push it to 3.2ghz without it running the ram out of spec and hence it was stable. I agree latency is more important then mhz (to an extent) with ram, however a higher cpu speed is more important than either of these. Cpu mhz increase > ram latency > ram mhz

As for parts I think you will find MSY has a majority of parts cheaper then anywhere else in Australia, its easier to get everything from one local store as well.

I cant argue with you there, but aside from overclocking, the only way hes going to get more cpu cycles is by buying a beefier cpu. And I'd never recommend a layperson to overclock, too many horror stories about people with overheating systems trying to watercool their own rigs *shudder*. I think the main point I wanted to make was even if he doesnt overclock, the low latency ram can make the system feel more responsive at stock speeds and that it didnt really cost that much to do so anymore... $200 for 4 gigs is bargain territory, Hell, I'd buy corsair just for their warranty to be honest ... I just cant say that getting higher specced ram on a stock frequency is going to be better than low latency ram built for that specific frequency, esp cause the higher specced ram reads the bios CAS/RAS defaults and scales back to the stock frequency anyhow.... by default that is...

-D

[Dohmar]

Everything you have stated is correct in your following posts HOWEVER with the current line of Intel systems they simply do not respond to ram overclocking and lower latency's like the old systems used to.

If you can save a few $ on ram its well worth pushing the money in to a better vid card or CPU that is more suited to a better/easier overclock.

Yeah I can't really call it here since Ive been on the same system for 3 years... we use Intel at work but we use stock cheap ass ram. If its a matter of a few hundred bucks on ram I'd agree with ya... $50 on a system isnt gonna break the bank and I don't think it'd particularly get him a much better vidcard. Perhaps a more reputable brand name *shrug*.... I guess it all depends on what hes gonna go for, cause if I wasn't a gamer I wouldn't bat an eyelid when it comes to ram

-D

[Dohmar]

Most cannot throw $ at a top line system if they are paying off a house or have a partner.

Aha but I always let there be a possibility that he's found 8 kilos of cocaine and sold it to lindsay lohan...

-D

[Cubes]

These days you can pick up good/reasonable 4gb ddr800 'a-data/kingston or supertalent' ram for $90-100.

MSY are soon to sell OCZ 1066 for 149 with a 4gb kit.

Throw in a E7200 or E8200 and you can easily run the 800mhz ram at 1:1 and push 4ghz providing you obtain a decent board. If not well you need better ram.

Be buggered if I can notice the speeds in windows with faster lower latency ram. Quicker cpu and more ram most definitely. The jump from 2gb to 4gm within vista was very noticeable.

Yeah I can't really call it here since Ive been on the same system for 3 years...

Ahh you really need to upgrade. The new systems are unbelievable how well they overclock on stock volts.

We still use AMD's with 1gb of ram at work. Not that they need any more as its only network and intranet stuff.

[Dohmar]

These days you can pick up good/reasonable 4gb ddr800 'a-data/kingston or supertalent' ram for $90-100.

MSY are soon to sell OCZ 1066 for 149 with a 4gb kit.

Throw in a E7200 or E8200 and you can easily run the 800mhz ram at 1:1 and push 4ghz providing you obtain a decent board. If not well you need better ram.

Be buggered if I can notice the speeds in windows with faster lower latency ram. Quicker cpu and more ram most definitely. The jump from 2gb to 4gm within vista was very noticeable.

It depends on what you're running. When I had the p3800 and i was overclocking, one of the first things i noticed was how snappy the windows 2000 gui was (and this is without animations or eye candy before and after, tests done after the system had settled)...it was noticably quicker by a fraction of a second... i notice such things I noticed the performance games with stuff like SOF2, cause it was notorious for swapping textures from the HDD to the Ram on the pre-load and the Ram to the Vid-Ram during the actual game. Had less stuttering (telltale sign for a bottleneck between the ram and the vidram, which is why a mass memory overclock can be very beneficial for gaming because you're speeding all 3 major factors (Ram, CPU, FSB) which get hammered on IO operations... and if you were unfortunate enuff to not have a locked PCI/AGP clock regulator, sometimes the FSB overclock would turn a 66mhz PCI bus into an 82mhz pci bus hehe.... which caused me all sorts of hassle when I had a pro-audio soundcard... tore my hair out over it tbh but ahh well

And yeah, Vistas a ram whore, you're always gonna notice a 200% jump no matter the application tho ;P I'd still never buy kingston or anything lesser tho (thats just me talking cause I do tweak the hell out of systems once I have them) $149 for OCZ is pretty good, they make good stuff, again worth the extra $50 imho

Oh and like you said, with a decent board u can do a hell of a lot more for your money Thats one area ya never skimp on

-D

PS. Cant be stuffed upgrading. I can do everything I want here aside from play the latest games, which suits me fine since I've just stopped my 2 year world of warcrack addiction. I'm getting an ASUS EEE 901 next week to put in my GTR and run Conzult logging constantly, and that little guy will do everything I want excluding gaming, dvd and encoding stuff.. current system does all that fine (And being in IT, i've spent more money than I care to think about on technology thats become quickly obsolete. I still have servers and rackmount shite from 2002/2003). Still I have an AMD64 3.2 ghz, 1 gig of tuned corsair ram dual channel, and a radeon XT PE x800 which is more than enuff... 74gb raptor for OS/programs and 500gig storage drive. Still plenty Just doesnt run stuff like Grid or Biosphere etc

Edited July 8, 2008 by Dohmar