Wolf 3D V4 vs PowerFC

[Gradenko]

Its interesting that the Wolf has 4 injector outputs vs the fc's 6 injector outputs. I'd always assumed the Wolf had 6 injection and ignition outputs, so it was at least as good as the factory ecu, but only 4 injector outputs would put the fc slightly ahead in terms of fuel economy and even power per cylinder.

Not to say the Wolf doesn't do an admirable job, its the closest plug-in competitor to the fc and its programmable outputs do come in useful. A top of the line Autronic is also lacking compared to the fc - 6 injector outputs but only 4 ignition outputs. Running waste spark would stress the rb's coil packs. And even with Motec, you'd have go to a top of the line M800pro for sequential control of injectors and ignition.

Both the Wolf and fc have flaws, just have to trade off on features you do and don't want.

[Cubes]

The PowerFC would be perfect if the lap top programability was readily available. However in SA its not so I guess Wolf3D is the next best.

But really does the sequential injection offer that much more power and fuel economy over the wolf3d style of injection.

I.e Microtech vs PowerFC.

Freebagins Microtech'd R33 (195rwkw) is making that tiny little bit more power than gregpins R33 (190rwkw) running a PowerFc. The PowerFC power curve does look slightly smoother and power drops off earlier. This was at the Tilbrooks Dyno Shoot-out.

So I guess it would be excellent IF we could have a back to back PowerFC vs Wolf3D on the same car.

It would be very interesting.

Given the Wolf3D has air temp compensation I am going to have to go for it. IF and only IF the PowerFC had the laptop software in SA with a good tuner would I get a PowerFC as then it would be able to tap in to the air temp compensation.

It gets damn hot in Adelaide, I don't want a little bit of detonation destroying my new motor for a tinny little bit better fuel consumption.

[Steve]

Originally posted by Gradenko

Its interesting that the Wolf has 4 injector outputs vs the fc's 6 injector outputs. I'd always assumed the Wolf had 6 injection and ignition outputs, so it was at least as good as the factory ecu, but only 4 injector outputs would put the fc slightly ahead in terms of fuel economy and even power per cylinder.

Not to say the Wolf doesn't do an admirable job, its the closest plug-in competitor to the fc and its programmable outputs do come in useful. A top of the line Autronic is also lacking compared to the fc - 6 injector outputs but only 4 ignition outputs. Running waste spark would stress the rb's coil packs. And even with Motec, you'd have go to a top of the line M800pro for sequential control of injectors and ignition.

Both the Wolf and fc have flaws, just have to trade off on features you do and don't want.

I am pretty sure that the plug and play version 4 ecus for skyline do have 6 injector and ingnition drivers. If it batch fired, how would Paul be running rotational idle?

The website, last time I checked it, was way out of date and didnt reflect this

[JimX]

Originally posted by -Joel-

Given the Wolf3D has air temp compensation I am going to have to go for it. IF and only IF the PowerFC had the laptop software in SA with a good tuner would I get a PowerFC as then it would be able to tap in to the air temp compensation.

It gets damn hot in Adelaide, I don't want a little bit of detonation destroying my new motor for a tinny little bit better fuel consumption.

You'd want to have a lot of faith in your Wolf's tuner, because there is no knock sensor warning. At least with the PowerFC you will get warning by the way of the dash light (or you can monitor the exact readings with the hand controller if you have one) and if it increases in hot weather, just richen it up and/or decrease the timing slightly.

I haven't heard of anyone blowing up their RB25 due to hot weather combined with a PowerFC. It's probably happened, but rare enough that I don't think it's a major concern as long as it's tuned right. As Emre said, generally speaking the settings you cannot change with the hand controller are usually pretty well spot on.

[Bl4cK32]

Ok, i've said this b4, but anything i add to this is for me to learn coz im stoopid

You guys seem to be held up on the fact that the Wolf has no Knock sensor. With this, does anyone know on good authority how Apexi scale this "Knock level" shown on the hand controller? (not "my tuner said 30 is bad. He's smart")

Wih the wolf and the Air temp compensation, if the EMS is setup properly, would it not be up to the Wolf to determine a bad level of tune and pull timing/fuel if the air temp/water temp or whatever was considered to be at an unsafe level? ie self correcting. No need for knock sensor then. Do i have this right?

Does the PowerFC do the air temp correction thingy, or would it stay at a certain level of tune unless you had to play with the hand controller? Then this would warrant the need for the knock sensor, to tell you when to "de-tune"?

[Steve]

Power fc on gts doesnt have air temp - which would be very, very handy as pointed out.

having a knock sensor IMHO is absolutely vital in aftermarket management - unless you have the car up on a dyno regularly.

One bad batch of fuel and its time to rebuild, fouled plugs from too much stop start traffic - same story.

You can acutally buy an aftermarket knock sensor - all it gives you is an amplitued reading from a particular frequency.

No, a knock sensor is not perfect, but on a gts, it will pick up knock before your ears can hear it.

How to scale? Buggered if I know, but I work on when the light flashes, I back off immediatley and my engine hasnt done any ringlands yet so I am happy.

What I can tell you though, is that if you drive around and you have a knock reading of around 30-40 on occasion, it doesnt hurt, normally mine sits around 5-15, with an occasional excursion to around 20-25. The excursion normally only happens when the car comes on load off the line, not when giving it heaps.

I have used it, and I find it is a great comfort.

And you can get knock detectors designed to give you a visual warning that is scaled with the amount of knock detected - would well be worth having, just ask anyone who has lost their ringlands to a bad batch of fuel etc.

[Cubes]

I am going to look in to how much an aftermarket knock detection is and weigh up the pro's and cons.

Is there any one in SA that has the laptop software for the powerfc?

I dropped Steve Taylor a line at wolf, this was his reply:

Hi Joel,

   Unfortunately we do not have knock detection, since it is difficult to implement accurately on a wide variety of engines.

 

If tuned correctly, using the appropriate fuel, and with a safety margin in the ignition map, you should not have any problems.  Also, there is an Air Temp vs Ignition Timing modification table that  you can use to reduce the amount of delivered ignition timing as the intake air increases.

 

Regards,

 

          Steve..  

[Cubes]

Also:

The Plugin units for the Wolf3D do not have a turbo timer option.  If you require a turbo timer, you will need to use a sparate turbo timer device.

That was another email from Steve Taylor.

[Bl4cK32]

So it still comes down to getting that bad batch of fuel. I thought Adelaide had no problem with the "Petrol mixing", or bad fuel? When was the last time someone here got bad fuel?

"having a knock sensor IMHO is absolutely vital in aftermarket management" - Would you not agree having Air temp corr. then eliminates the need for a knock sensor (bar the bad fuel)?

[Cubes]

Thats true Bl4ck32, BUT you need a tuner that knows what he is doing.

I guess without a knock sensor there is no real way of telling how the tuner has tuned her. If it is knocking slightly or not.

A good tuner should know the ecu they are tuning and the engine.

Notice how Martin has had a little trouble with the Microtechs and cracking ring lands. Maybe this is due to him not having much experience with them and maybe when he tunes the PowerFC's he uses its knock sensor. Hence why he tunes PowerFC's really good without engine breakages but breaks Microtech's ecu'd cars.

[Steve]

Air temp correction helps, and it is a good thing, I wish Power FC had it for GTS but it is not fool proof, and is only as good as the tuner - what happens when not enough retardation is allowed for the 40deg summer day, or when you have been sitting in a traffic jam????

Bad batch of fuel is definately not the only thing that will cause knock - going up a hill and using a bit (not alot) of accellerator on in too high a gear, plugs fouling, fuel surge.... the list goes on, even more probs if you are tuning from MAP rather than MAF but that is a different story.

I am not saying that you cant get a decent tune without causing knock, or that if you dont have one you will destroy your ringlands, all I am saying is that if you spend 2K on a decent ecu fitted and tuned, why not spend a few hundred and get a decent knock warning? Makes alot of sense if you dont have one with the ecu, especially when you consider that the manufacturer thought it important enough to have knock detection and automatic retardation of the ignition in the stock, unmodified car IMHO

At the end of the day, I have knock warning, I am happy:)

[Steve]

Another thing to think about, I have it on very good authority (ie someone who works in the refining process) that the only company that actually cracks its fuel at 98ron, ie doenst use additives to increase it octane rating is BP.

This means that if you buy a 98 ron from any other company, the fuel may be below 98 by the time it reaches your engine, esp if it has been a while since they refilled at the station, or your car has been sitting for a while.

In WA this isnt an issue, as the only 98 ron available is from BP, but be careful if you are in another state.

[Cubes]

To be honest steve if I had an R33 I would go the PowerFC.

But unfortunately I don't..

The Wolf will do fine for my application with a knock detector.

[Steve]

Dont feel bad about having not having an R33 - your R32 is very nice and puts alot of 33's to shame:)

[Bl4cK32]

yeah, what -Joel- said.

[Cubes]

Its put a stock R33 GTR to shame that I was quite happy about..

[Roy]

Another thing not already mentioned is that a MAP based ECU isnt as flexible at running different boost levels.

Say you have a 400hp odd turbo, and have low boost at 12psi, and high boost at 18psi. You would obviously tuned the ECU at 18psi, which in my expereince leaves the car running pretty ordinary when you are tootling around at 12psi.

Well that was my experience with my old RB20 running Microtech... but with a WOLF and memory card, i imagine you could easily enough have different tunes.

Can anyone else confirm this...

[Bl4cK32]

You can have 2 different maps you can switch between using an external switch to go from the internal memory map to one stored on the external cartidge. Or to quote from the user manual:

"You can use an Auxiliary Output to toggle the Auxiliary input to switch maps. The aux. output is setup to switch using any of the available inputs at the desired state. When the Aux Out toggles to switch maps.

[Sydneykid]

Hi guys, something I posted in another thread that has significance here (sorry if you have already read it)....

I have tested 2 boost gauges side by side, one with a long vacuum hose and the other with almost none, and there is a noticeable difference in the transient readings. ie; the one with the short hose shows boost before the one with the longer hose. The absolute value is the same, it just takes more time for the air to pressurise the longer hose. This is particularly noticeable on rapid upchanges through the gearbox, say when doing a 1/4 run.

This is one of advantages quoted by Trust for their electronic boost gauges due to no hoses, that being, quicker response to changes. So I am not the only one who has seen this.

This does not show up during a dyno power run when testing a MAP sensor with long hoses as the dyno ramp rate is slow enough to enable the MAP sensor to keep up with boost rise. Plus you don't change gear on the dyno. So it would only show up when driving on the road or track with F&W lambda sensor and display connected. Since we run fuel enrichment under boost, if the MAP sensor is slow in responding you could have (in theory) boost without sufficient fuel until the MAP sensor caught up. I haven't tested it and I was wondering whether anyone else had.

Moving on, I keep seeing quotes saying that two of the big advantages of a Wolf is that you don't have to run AFM's and it is P&P. In my opinion the advantages are mutually exclusive ie; if you run AFM's then it is plug and play, but if you don't want to run AFM's then it is not P&P.

Hope that adds to the post

[Steve]

Perhaps it would be more accurate for the pedantic amongst us to say its P&P, and you can run from map if you so wish - which of course isnt available from the garden variety power fc