Gravel Rally And Nissans

[phunky_monkey]

Here's a rally Sil thread on NS: http://nissansilvia.com.au/forums/index.ph...=rally&st=0

[warps]

Good move, Marlin. I was feeling a bit guilty about the serious hijack

I currently rally an RX2 which is great fun, but getting frustrating due to the lack of parts available.

An R32 Skyline or S13 Silvia are both excellent rally choices, due to the availability of spares and their inherent balance / performance out of the box. There are a few S13's rallying now, and I know of several others in the build, or about to start being built. I think they will likely become the 1600 of the 21st century (although their body strength is yet to be determined - just can't kill those 1600's without hitting it with a big fkoff tree.)

I have spoken to CAMS anout eligibility of the R32, and by the book the GTR is the only one you can run as a PRC car. However, most of the events I compete in ahve an "all comers" section where cars are allowed to run that don't normally fit in the PRC guidelines. That's fine for me as I have no interest in winning championships.

Most of the club rallies I've done have central servicing, so you don't need a service crew. Tou just front up with yoour tow vehicle full of tools, and service is done at the same place. The events are usually one or 2 days too, and most people camp out overnight. We choose to camp, but I know a lot of people who drive to the event in the morning, compete, then drive home afterwards. Makes for a long day, but we've done it several times.

If you want to chase ARC points, then it takes some more commitment, and $$, but that's no different to running at the top level of any motorsport category.

If rallying takes too much organising, then there are sprints, khanacrosses etc that let you fang around a gravel track all day, and you don't need so much as a spanner man. you can turn up by yourself, (no navigator needed) and do all your own running repairs, although there are usually plenty of others offering to give you a hand

When I sell the RX2, my preference is to build an R32 GTSt. DOn't waste your time with NA - a decent L20 Datto 1600 will rung rings around you as it's about 300kg lighter, and not a lot less powerful. The minimum weight for a 2L turbo RWD rally car is 1270kg, so it makes no difference whether you build a Silvia or R32 Skyline. I think either would reach that weight without too much drama.

[Victory]

I am aware of another Silva rally car that is being build buy a local SAU member in Wollongong "yld34t".

Toby has a background in rallying Datsun 1600's and it is a natural progression to a Silvia with a SR20DET with their recent admission to the regs.

Parts are readily available and the SR20 will provide plenty of performance. One of the challenges is that rally tyres only come in up to 15 diamater and although wheels are available fitting Skyline four spot front brakes inside these small rims will not be easy.

[giant]

GTR R32 all the way!!

i'll build one with ya benny, but cant do it till next year. (dont know who drives it, might have to take turns, but i'm not getting in that silly seat)

i would love to hear a properly built r32 gtr screamin through the forest.

i have never heard one in more than 12 years in that scene.

gtrs have an amazingly good 4wd system, great response when geared right with good turbo's( even with restrictors) & super tough drive train when the box is replaced, main prob;em i see is making the chassis strong enough and getting a faster steering rack.

mmm sounds like a plan

[Duncan]

OK....if this thread looks very wierd its because the first 15 posts are from the roll cage build thread....

[Duncan]

I'm not familiar with the rules for PRC but if they are similar to improved production (2x 32m restrictors, or 1x38mm restrictor) then a GTR will struggle. Just can't make enough power with the restrictors to make up for the wieght disadvantage.

What are the main rules?

[warps]

I'm not familiar with the rules for PRC but if they are similar to improved production (2x 32m restrictors, or 1x38mm restrictor) then a GTR will struggle. Just can't make enough power with the restrictors to make up for the wieght disadvantage.

What are the main rules?

Correct. The GTR is considered AWD under PRC rules, so must have a restrictor on each turbo. The restrictors are sized for 2.0L turbo engines to peak out at about 300hp, but the top cars make bags of torque. The 2.6L GTR engine will struggle with the same restrictors, and probably make LESS power than stock.

This rule does not apply to 2WD rally cars (the theory is that they cant get the power to the ground anyway - which has a lot of truth to it). Talking to owners of turbo RWD rally cars (DR30, BLuebird, Silvia, FC RX7, FD RX7) the consensus seems to be that the stock turbo running stock boost goves the most enjouable drive in the gravel. I have silimar issues with my RX2. Plenty of power (180RWHP) and no traction makes it "interesting" to drive in the forest.

I prefer the fat torque curve of stock turbos for gravel rallying.

A mechanically stock GTS2 or Silvia (with some uprated springs and shocks ) will be very competitive against some big dollar Escorts, Dattos etc. and be a lot more reliable and easier to live with. It's a logical choice.

I don't think that the S13 and S14 owners have had any trouble fitting 15" rims onto their cars. In fact, the S13 rims are available just about at every newsagent, so makes them perfect for rallying. ou can have 3 or 4 sets of rims for a few hundred $$. doesn't matter if ypu bend some rims.

[Marlin]

Thanks for tidying it up Dunc

Giant, I'm in for that, but I dunno about sitting beside you, how will you be without all your flappy paddles, electronic saviors etc..... lol

[warps]

Following is an extract from the CAMS manual regarding turbo restrictors on rally cars.

Turbocharger Sealing Requirements

1. For all turbocharged Group N and Group N (P) 4WD vehicles , whose homologated turbocharger inlet size

is 32mm or greater (22.6mm for vehicles fitted with two or more turbochargers), and for all turbocharged

Production Rally Cars (PRC), whose turbocharger inlet size is greater than 34mm (24mm for vehicles fitted with

two or more turbo-chargers), it will be compulsory to have a restrictor fitted in accordance with FIA Group N

Regulations, Article 6, save that the size of the restrictor for PRC will be 34mm (24mm for vehicles fitted with

two or more turbochargers).

2. These Regulations do not apply to two-wheel drive turbocharged vehicles. However, competitors with

2WD turbocharged vehicles must attend turbo scrutiny and must be checked for inlet size against the

homologation papers and have the compressor housing sealed to the bearing housing. For those competitors

with non-homologated 2WD turbo vehicles, components must be identical to the series part.

3. The turbocharger restrictor will be measured and sealed in place prior to competition in any round of the

Championship. All turbochargers used on these cars during the event will be required to be measured and

sealed prior to their use.

4. Competitors must present turbochargers to the organisers in a condition to be sealed, ie, they must be wired

and prepared for sealing with leadseals or a CAMS-approved alternative in a manner that will be easily seen

when assembled on the car.

The restrictor must be sealed to the compressor housing, which in turn must be sealed to the bearing

housing which in turn must be sealed to the exhaust housing. This can usually be effected by one wire and

therefore one seal. The diagrams below may assist.

Here is a link to the full paper on turbo sealing and restrictors for gP N and PRC rally cars. (go to page 3)

Edited August 22, 2009 by warps

[giant]

or enter all comers rally events (which look like the most fun anyway) and run no restrictors at all, run anti lag , breath fire , 4 wheel roost everywhere!!!

[giant]

it would be excellent to see the all comers events become more popular than a couple of stock evo's that we currently see running around in ARC & winning.

currently the ARC couldnt be more boring if they tried.

bring back group A (with no restrictors , the way it use to be), better still group b & group G!! until then all comers.

[_Ryan_]

Good move, Marlin. I was feeling a bit guilty about the serious hijack

I currently rally an RX2 which is great fun, but getting frustrating due to the lack of parts available.

An R32 Skyline or S13 Silvia are both excellent rally choices, due to the availability of spares and their inherent balance / performance out of the box. There are a few S13's rallying now, and I know of several others in the build, or about to start being built. I think they will likely become the 1600 of the 21st century (although their body strength is yet to be determined - just can't kill those 1600's without hitting it with a big fkoff tree.)

I have spoken to CAMS anout eligibility of the R32, and by the book the GTR is the only one you can run as a PRC car. However, most of the events I compete in ahve an "all comers" section where cars are allowed to run that don't normally fit in the PRC guidelines. That's fine for me as I have no interest in winning championships.

Most of the club rallies I've done have central servicing, so you don't need a service crew. Tou just front up with yoour tow vehicle full of tools, and service is done at the same place. The events are usually one or 2 days too, and most people camp out overnight. We choose to camp, but I know a lot of people who drive to the event in the morning, compete, then drive home afterwards. Makes for a long day, but we've done it several times.

If you want to chase ARC points, then it takes some more commitment, and $$, but that's no different to running at the top level of any motorsport category.

If rallying takes too much organising, then there are sprints, khanacrosses etc that let you fang around a gravel track all day, and you don't need so much as a spanner man. you can turn up by yourself, (no navigator needed) and do all your own running repairs, although there are usually plenty of others offering to give you a hand

When I sell the RX2, my preference is to build an R32 GTSt. DOn't waste your time with NA - a decent L20 Datto 1600 will rung rings around you as it's about 300kg lighter, and not a lot less powerful. The minimum weight for a 2L turbo RWD rally car is 1270kg, so it makes no difference whether you build a Silvia or R32 Skyline. I think either would reach that weight without too much drama.

Since selling my 1600 18months ago and buying the skyline 2months ago, I have wondered whether it would be suitable for dirt work(datto was only a cage away but my situation made me sell it)... I knew the S13 would be this generations P510, But too me it makes more sense to try and use the R32- Wishbone front end, bigger brakes etc, and if you arent running for points(which from the sound of things in an R32 GTST you WONT be!), IF the 20 ever dies could put a 25 in as we all know torque is king That said, a bloody R31 could be THE cheapest way into rallying... 3L torque, RWD etc, but lack of aftermarket parts could be an issue.

The bulk of hollow aftermarket arms would be useless IMO. But it isn't hard to get good stuff made up if you know where too go... I had billet LCA's in my 1600

[Kel]

I'm always up for the silly seat if it's a skyline and a semi decent driver

good to see some talk about getting one happening.

[Marlin]

Giant's so right. we went up and watched the ARC/APRC a couple on months ago, and good God, what a limp wristed bunch of cars Group N's are...... I reckon to hell with running restrictors, run a tough Nissan of any form that spits flames and revs it's nuts off, and you'll be the favourite son of the organisers, because it'll be YOU the crowds come to see, not the panzy limbed Group N crap that can't even get out it's own way.

No wonder ARC has been steadily dying, because in my opinion, the driver skill is still great, but the cars are lame.

You only need to look at the Australian Off-Road Championship to see where the money's being spent! Toyota's sponsoring a weapon of a Buggy, and US style Trophy Trucks are become more prevalent..... and I think i know why! 800hp and roosting dirt is really cool to watch

[hrd-hr30]

If you have a friend like me who loves going bush for 3-4days and staying up at god awful hours and servicing cars and you have a good mate who loves and s good at navigating then then rallying is awesome.

If you have to do it all yourself, i think the logistics of rallying are what keeps me out, otherwise its very cheap motorsport compared to other forms (until you bin it)

cheap motorsport? if you want to be anywhere near the pace, you need at least 1 set of tyres per event! 6 if you expect to keep up for the second half of a rally in a rwd car. Nothing beats forest rallying for the adrenaline factor, but its not a cheap form of motorsport. If you just do shorter club rallysprints that's a bit different, but old tyres don't give anywhere near as much bite when throwing it in sideways. For me, I want to go as fast as I can when I'm competing in any event. That is much safer on new rubber than worn rubber. Doesn't matter how much tread is left on them, rally tyres only really work with new, fresh, sharp edges on the blocks.

And if you are starting out, its best to do it in something real cheap (the R31 suggestion from RB Ryan is a good one). There's a a reason for the saying, "you're not a rally driver until you've had a rollover" Go and ask some of the best rally guys in your local area about how many cars they went through when they started out. There are plenty of others who are happy to just toddle around in the forest (if you've ever spectated you know its true!) who may not crash for a long time, but if you are having a go it will happen when you are learning the ropes.

My thoughts on the hot GTR for the relatively recent 'all comers' class happening in QLD, is that wil be the end of it. They set that up to try to encourage some of the Kiwi classic cars to come over (they have more relaxed rules and would not be eligible to run here otherwise) and have since kept it going for the local classic guys. It allows them to run flares and re-live the glory days of Group G. But if someone starts throwing a 500bhp GTR around the forest, the CAMS Nannies will probably feel the need to step in and kill the fun...

[Marlin]

I agree with you Harry, no form of motorsport is "cheap" if you want to be competetive. Heck, I've been doing the Queensland Enduro Karting Championship this year and although it's designed to be cheap, it's just not, ok, well it kinda is compared to car racing, but it still saps plenty of dosh.

And realistically, you're likely also right on the "all comers" class. Once a 65 year old CAMS official gets a glimpse of a roosting weapon and has Group B disaster flashbacks, it'll be a wrap. Could get a good year of fun in first though

Edited August 24, 2009 by Marlin

[giant]

totally agree!

bloody barstards!!

i was at a 4wd winch challenge a few months ago in rocky and i could not believe the amount of spectators there on the friday night, was fantastic to see a few thousand watching.

50 odd competitors , some with superchargers hanging through the bonnet, nitro's etc. crazy stuff.

they also had an event a few weeks ago called cliffhanger, some amazing machines, huge horespower, awsome setups, prize money was 30 grand! split up really well, 5 k for first some for 2nd & 3rd, also 1k for each person for a stage win!

if you win an ARC round i think you get about $300 . lol

the sad thing is rallying can be the most amazing to watch & has some of the most talented drivers.

[Marlin]

You could always blow an official to convince them to let you keep running Russ.

[PHaT MR30]

What are peoples thoughts on actually needing turbo power in a 2wd rally car? Iam not sure, seems to just turn them into a tyre lathe.

I say this because we run a 4AGE Sprinter with a massive 80 odd rwkw (Stockish motor with quads) in the Tasmanian rally series and we are keeping up with and even beating some of the 4wd turbo cars. And there is a 2wd N/A SR20 Sunny Gti down here that regularly makes it onto the podium.

I think we need that Formula Atlantic engine to keep up with the Gti though!

[warps]

What are peoples thoughts on actually needing turbo power in a 2wd rally car? Iam not sure, seems to just turn them into a tyre lathe.

I say this because we run a 4AGE Sprinter with a massive 80 odd rwkw (Stockish motor with quads) in the Tasmanian rally series and we are keeping up with and even beating some of the 4wd turbo cars. And there is a 2wd N/A SR20 Sunny Gti down here that regularly makes it onto the podium.

I think we need that Formula Atlantic engine to keep up with the Gti though!

Read my comments above re: turbo RWD rally cars.

a well sorted FWD rally car (such as Sunny GTI) will snot on most RWD cars every time. For speed, FWD > RWD on gravel - can't argue that.

As I said in my very first posts, I like the thought of a turbo RWD Nissan, which is why I am considering it. Nothing more. I know I wont set the world on fire, but I will have a bucket load of fun. Sometimes our choices aren't based on what's good for the sport, or what will progress our motorsport careers. My choices are about getting a more balanced, reliable car that I can have the most fun in (BTW Sprinters have excellent balance too, which helps to overcome their lack of power). Nothing else really matters to me.

My other option at this point in my life is to chuck it all in and learn to fly instead. I'm having a very hard time making that decision.