Orc709d R32 Gtr Fitment Problems

[GT-R32]

Hi there

Having an ongoing issue with my clutch fitment. The workshop has tried twice and the same problem persists: The take is wrong as the car wants to 'creep' when the foot is depressed and in neutral the car is hard to get into gear.

I have heard of these issues where the the wrong carrier and bearing has been used and someone on here having it done multiple times for this reason. The workshop I have the car at has tried twice. The Chinese aftermarket part they installed this time has a part no. TK40-1B2. They couldn't tell me the bearng length either.

If I can demonstrate to them that the wrong bearing has been used they will refit the clutch with that bearing and I will accept the car as is.

I can't tell whether this Chinese bearing currently fitted is wrong when compared to the following which is should be for this clutch: 30501-N1604 bearing sleeve, and 30502-14601 throwout bearing.

At the moment they are blaming the clutch.

I would greatly appreciate some help!!

Thanks,

Matt

[GT-R32]

So I have verified that the bearing they have fitted is now correct (they had a different one in it previously).

He couldn't tell me the carrier part number that he fitted. He said that they are all the same for GTRs. Does this clutch require a different sized carrier to what GTRs normally do?

[The Dan]

Where are you located?

Your problem could be:

Bearing carrier height

Throwout bearing type

Clutch pedal adjustment

Master or Slave cylinder primary seal fault

If it's master or slave cylinder fault, then you should be able to pump the pedal 5 or 6 times and it will then engage, then slowly lose pressure and pull the car forward.

Clutch pedal adjustment is the most common error made by mechanics. If they have adjusted it too far, then it will block the recovery port in the master cylinder and will always try to pull the car forward and not go into gear properly. If they have not adjusted it far enough, then it will do the same as far as the pedal goes but because it's not getting enough throw in the slave cylinder.

If they have used the wrong bearing it would be a problem also but less likely.

The carrier is important, from the kits I have seen, the carrier is longer than the factory item

[GT-R32]

Where are you located?

Your problem could be:

Bearing carrier height

Throwout bearing type

Clutch pedal adjustment

Master or Slave cylinder primary seal fault

If it's master or slave cylinder fault, then you should be able to pump the pedal 5 or 6 times and it will then engage, then slowly lose pressure and pull the car forward.

Clutch pedal adjustment is the most common error made by mechanics. If they have adjusted it too far, then it will block the recovery port in the master cylinder and will always try to pull the car forward and not go into gear properly. If they have not adjusted it far enough, then it will do the same as far as the pedal goes but because it's not getting enough throw in the slave cylinder.

If they have used the wrong bearing it would be a problem also but less likely.

The carrier is important, from the kits I have seen, the carrier is longer than the factory item

Great reply. Thanks very much.

Throwout bearing type is correct as far as I can see now. They couldn't tell me the carrier part number and only said that "it's the same for all GTRs, the only difference is a push/pull arrangements".

They said they have spent time on adjustment and still no luck.

I will try the pumping the thing when I go out there at lunch. I wish they could tell me what f**king sleeve they used!!

Located in Canberra.

[The Dan]

There is 2 different carriers for 32 GTR's. Long and short. I haven't looked up the 709D clutch as I have no time but if it's a twin, usually it's the short one that's harder to find. The short one has to be fitted with all OSGiken clutches along with the OS Bearing but not sure on the ORC stuff. You may have the shorter carrier and need the long one. The long one will make the bearing closer to the spring and give you full travel of the slave cylinder against the clutch.

If this is your problem, and you want to save time, pull out the slave cylinder push rod, get a bolt (10mm diameter) that is approx 10mm longer than the factory push rod (65mm from memory), cut off the head and grind a round edge on both ends, replace the pushrod with that and shorten in 1-2mm increments until it is perfect.

the easiest way to diagnose a short carrier when a long one is needed is to push the throwout fork so it moves the bearing against the clutch spring, then note the distance between the pushrod end and the fork. If there is a large gap there, then the carrier needs to move closer to the clutch. If the pushrod is pushed way back into the cylinder, then it's too long etc.

Hope this helps

[GT-R32]

Thanks again Daniel. I'll take the car at lunch and later, as they can't tell me what carrier they used, when I have a minute will check the things you've written up here.

If anyone can tell me whether the ORC709D requires the 'normal' GTR carrier or the one this workshop doesn't know exists, that would be great. It's a bit of a blind game if they can't tell me that or the part number.

[T04GTR]

YOU NEED a 14mm carrier. if its not disengaging propperly and has the the right height, the spigot bearing in the crank could be damaged.

and the bearing has to be the small diameter one. basicly the bearing/carrier is the same as your typical os giken etc etc setup.

if its got the large stock bearing it could explain a few things..

[GT-R32]

Well I picked up the car anyway.

Very difficult to get into gear from neutral when idle. Car then creeps initially but stops. Take up point is as it should be. Still have no idea what carrier they have used.

I'll drive it for a while and just hope it beds in and gets better. Take off, pedal feel and changing gears etc is very nice - great clutch when working I am sure!

[The Dan]

+1 on spigot bearing causing the input shaft to keep spinning. did they change it?

I would not drive the car like that. It will not 'bed in' it will only damage the clutch or wear it out prematurely.

Also if they have not installed the cover properly they could have distorted the plate or diaphram. If they hung the box on the input while trying to line it up, they could have bent the plate also. This can cause the same issues.

You'll find out soon enough though

[GT-R32]

+1 on spigot bearing causing the input shaft to keep spinning. did they change it?

I would not drive the car like that. It will not 'bed in' it will only damage the clutch or wear it out prematurely.

Also if they have not installed the cover properly they could have distorted the plate or diaphram. If they hung the box on the input while trying to line it up, they could have bent the plate also. This can cause the same issues.

You'll find out soon enough though

They didn't change the spigot bearing. Shit I don't like the sound of the rest of that, I'd never know for sure either.

What do you mean I'll find out soon enough...?

[The Dan]

They didn't change the spigot bearing. Shit I don't like the sound of the rest of that, I'd never know for sure either.

What do you mean I'll find out soon enough...?

I mean, you sound like you are going to just see how it goes. Soon enough you will find out if it has damaged the clutch/flywheel or the spigot/input shaft.

If I paid someone to do a job I would expect that it get's done properly or it gets fixed as soon as possible if it is not right. I give my customers no less. If it is still not right after they have tried twice, then you should have a serious talk with them about it. They shouldn't be giving the car back like that as it could do damage to other parts....it may not either but the chances are still quite high

[GT-R32]

I mean, you sound like you are going to just see how it goes. Soon enough you will find out if it has damaged the clutch/flywheel or the spigot/input shaft.

If I paid someone to do a job I would expect that it get's done properly or it gets fixed as soon as possible if it is not right. I give my customers no less. If it is still not right after they have tried twice, then you should have a serious talk with them about it. They shouldn't be giving the car back like that as it could do damage to other parts....it may not either but the chances are still quite high

They have written it off as being entirely the clutches fault. They are at a loss on what else it might be and upset having spent the additional time on taking the 'box out a second time plus more than usual on adjustment.

Far out, I guess I should reassess 'just seeing how it goes.' Thanks for your help Daniel, it's much appreciated.

[GT-R32]

According to the other thread 18mm is the ''normal'' GTR carrier length while my ORC needs the less common 14mm. The workshop couldn't tell me what they used but said it was the "normal" one (which is the long one). I don't like the sound of that either...?

I'll be seriously disappointed if I found out the spigot bearing is rooted. The flywheel has been off twice with these issues and they didn't check it? $972 later!

Anyway no point worrying now, it's only speculation

[stav]

You will either wear out the clutch very prematurely or damage the crankshaft thrust bearings if you continue driving/running it, incorrectly adjusted or wrong carrier fitted. I have seen both happen. What year is your car, is it push or pull, do you have the full part number of your clutch kit ? Let me know and I will make sure it is the correct one for yor car at work tommorrow.

[GT-R32]

You will either wear out the clutch very prematurely or damage the crankshaft thrust bearings if you continue driving/running it, incorrectly adjusted or wrong carrier fitted. I have seen both happen. What year is your car, is it push or pull, do you have the full part number of your clutch kit ? Let me know and I will make sure it is the correct one for yor car at work tommorrow.

ORC-709D-01N is the clutch part number.

Where do you work mate?

[stav]

What month and year is your car ? or what is you vin # and I will work it out.

[GT-R32]

What month and year is your car ? or what is you vin # and I will work it out.

10/89 I am pretty sure. Only a month or two out, if it's not that.

[The Dan]

10/89 I am pretty sure. Only a month or two out, if it's not that.

It's a standard push arrangement.

If you do what I was telling you to with the fork, then you will be able to tell what carrier they used.

Check to make sure the fork (where it touches the slave pushrod) can be pushed back into the slave cylinder. If you can do this, then the carrier in there will be fine. If you can't, then it means the carrier has butted up against the snout of the gearbox. This doesn't usually cause the problem you are having....normally it will cause the clutch to disengage as the bearing will be pusing against the spring slightly. As the clutch wears and the spring moves further towards the carrier and bearing, the bearing has nowhere to go so it just keeps pushing against it causing the clutch to slip and wear out very quickly.

Sometimes you can have the issue where the spring goes over-centre which means you are pushing it that far, that when it has lifted the clutch plate off the flywheel, it then starts pushing the clutch down again. This is also easy to check as you can just push the clutch pedal 3/4 of the way down and see if it goes into gear.

I would still put my money on adjustment. It is by far the most common thing I see with people who don't know what they are doing. They just keep adjusting the pedal thinking it will give them more travel, but they don't realise they have already blocked the recovery port and no amount of adjusting will get them anywhere. Get them to back off the adjustment completely.....all the way out. Then start from scratch. The clutch should have come with it's own carrier anyway. I'm pretty sure all ORC and OS Giken clutches that require the shorter carrier are supplied in the kit.

You still haven't confirmed if it's a twin or single plate clutch either. If it's a single plate, none of this carrier shit matters.

I'm too lasy/busy to look it up

[GT-R32]

It's a standard push arrangement.

If you do what I was telling you to with the fork, then you will be able to tell what carrier they used.

Check to make sure the fork (where it touches the slave pushrod) can be pushed back into the slave cylinder. If you can do this, then the carrier in there will be fine. If you can't, then it means the carrier has butted up against the snout of the gearbox. This doesn't usually cause the problem you are having....normally it will cause the clutch to disengage as the bearing will be pusing against the spring slightly. As the clutch wears and the spring moves further towards the carrier and bearing, the bearing has nowhere to go so it just keeps pushing against it causing the clutch to slip and wear out very quickly.

Sometimes you can have the issue where the spring goes over-centre which means you are pushing it that far, that when it has lifted the clutch plate off the flywheel, it then starts pushing the clutch down again. This is also easy to check as you can just push the clutch pedal 3/4 of the way down and see if it goes into gear.

I would still put my money on adjustment. It is by far the most common thing I see with people who don't know what they are doing. They just keep adjusting the pedal thinking it will give them more travel, but they don't realise they have already blocked the recovery port and no amount of adjusting will get them anywhere. Get them to back off the adjustment completely.....all the way out. Then start from scratch. The clutch should have come with it's own carrier anyway. I'm pretty sure all ORC and OS Giken clutches that require the shorter carrier are supplied in the kit.

You still haven't confirmed if it's a twin or single plate clutch either. If it's a single plate, none of this carrier shit matters.

I'm too lasy/busy to look it up

I will run those checks probably on the weekend.

With regard to adjustment, I would agree, but when it creeps it does when you smash it into gear that then it has a normal take up point further up the pedal. I'm not driving it as I don't want to do it damage.

It didn't come with its own carrier, it was clutch only in the Ogura packaging. It's a twin plate.

What are the chances that the clutch is actually stuffed and how can I tell if it is?

[heller44]

My orc twin didn't come with anything either, though I have been informed by a few people that the os giken clutches and not the orc.

I have already given all my information to gt-r32 regarding the correct parts for fitting.