Jump to content
SAU Community

Recommended Posts

Gday,

I had an electrical fire in my car a few days ago and now that it's re-wired i start her up and it sounds aweful!

It's strange because I have a theory it's coming from the engine starter because when it's running already I turn it to start and it DOESN'T do anything (ie. doesn't grind when you try to start a car thats already started). So I'm thinking it's somehow getting shorted and is staying on, the theory against this however is that it doesn't grind loudly like a car being turned on thats already on.

Anyway accompanied with this metalic noise (which slightly seems to follow the revs, but not entirely), is a smell I've never smelt before. It's not quite burnt oil it's not plastic it's not metal it's something else but it definately smells like grinding or friction of some sort. This comes from where the engine starter is on the passenger side of the engine (sr20det).

To top it off, I get NO boost - atleast I can't hear the turbo spool nor does the boost gauge go past positive (it's responds in the negative pressure but won't go over zero).

*sigh* Could anyone have any theories? Is it possible there was a wire fried out that controlled the turbo, or does the turbo spool according to the engine (ie. not electrically controlled by the computer for example)?

What could the noise be?

And lastly, since this is probably beyond the usual "what could this be check this check that" does anyone here work for a speed shop and do side jobs or anything like that?

I'm really hoping it's salvagable cos otherwise I just bought a rather large write-off.

Also could the fact I get no boost and some weird grinding noises be caused by a blown up (from the electrical fire) crank angle sensor? - cos i think that was one of the things closest to where the fire occured (wiring wise).

It's strange because I have a theory it's coming from the engine starter because when it's running already I turn it to start and it DOESN'T do anything (ie. doesn't grind when you try to start a car thats already started).

This suggests to me that the starter pinion is still engaged with the ring-gear teeth. That would certainly make some unusual noises. Also could get quite hot as (of course) it's not meant to be like that, but could also explain the smell.

Could be the starter solenoid is partly jammed on, or is shorted somehow. Usually when that happens, the +ve cable from the battery starts to get quite 'warm' after awhile as it is continually carrying current with the solenoid shorted.

Anyway, I'd suggest disconnecting the battery and removing the starter motor to check it out - either by yourself or an auto elec.

SteveL thanks that sounds like a good theory. It sounds good because after the electrical fire I had the car started in the second ignition switch.

(I think it goes lock, acc, on, start ? if thats the order it started from acc, then if you went to on it'd just cut out for a sec (loss of current) then keep going, when you moved to start no difference the car would stay on except my water temp gauge would zoom down (reverse polarity to a positive signal)).

Also after I got my car home when it was still shorting (before cleaning up the wires) everytime I put the fuse back in (the starter motor fuse/accessories fuse) the starter motor would turn on like crazy.

But is it still possible it's the starter motor because this grinding DOES NOT sound as loud (or the same type) of grind as when you try to turn a car on that's already on??

I was thinking of starting the car and then getting underneath it and unplugging the wire from the ignition to the solenoid to see if the noise would go away if it does then found our culprit - I'll try this and let you know how I go. I'm really hoping if I do that it DOES stop the noise and the fact my turbo isn't spooling comes back!!

Thanks Red no prob - didn't really think that it'd go in this section. Noted for further troubles :)

Also after I got my car home when it was still shorting (before cleaning up the wires) everytime I put the fuse back in (the starter motor fuse/accessories fuse) the starter motor would turn on like crazy.

Again this says something is shorted in the starter or in the starter wiring. As well as the heavy cable from the battery to the starter, there should be a single small wire connected to the starter solenoid. That little wire provides power to activate the starter motor when you turn the key to 'start'. With the motor running, try pulling that small wire off the starter. If the noise goes away, the problem is with the wiring to the starter, but if it's still noisey with the wire disconnected the problem is with the starter motor itself. I'd guess your problem is with the wiring since you had a fire, perhaps somethings note re-wired correctly

But is it still possible it's the starter motor because this grinding DOES NOT sound as loud (or the same type) of grind as when you try to turn a car on that's already on??

If the solenoid is jammed on for whatever reason, the starter pinion will remain 'permanently' engaged with the ring-gear teeth. The noise would be a bit like a loose gear in a gearbox, changing pitch with rpm.

When you turn the starter on with the engine running, the starter solenoid trys to throw the starter pinion (or gear) into engagement with an already moving set of teeth on the ring gear. The chances of them engaging correctly are very small and more often than not you get that high pitched 'scream' as the gears clash - quite a different sound.

If I can't get it diagnosed without pulling the solenoid wire off I will tape the sound on the digicam and post it up.

I've never heard this kinda sound before. Normally when you try to start a car thats already started it clunks like crazy - this is weirder than that.

Oh well hopefully that's all thats fried.

Would this effect the turbo not spooling for whatever reason? (I'm hoping this is just a wiring/electrical issue).

Thanks mate.

Yes JK the sound was horrible from the flywheel it seemed (I guess you're saying thats what it was).

Yes SteveL you were totally spot on - thanks for your advice!

I left work early today and eagerly did this test - turned on the engine, pulled out the solenoid wire from the ignition and sure enough the noise just went away !! Woohooo. I then let the car warm up and I was back on boost!! weeeeeeeee!!!

I took my car for a nice little drive my neighbourhood and drove it back onto a ramp. Now I'm happy as pie knowing nothing is majorly dead in my car. I will still have to track down what's causing the starter to stay on however I have a feeling it's the ignition wiring or perhaps the ignition itself.

I might have to have my sparky mate check it out and manually short all the ignition wires to see if it's the ignition barrel or the wires leading up to it. I'm thinking perhaps the short somehow ****ed the barrel?

Cos ever since I've turned it on it starts the car from ACC (as mentioned above).

Weeee!!! I'm so happy right now knowing it ain't my turbo.

No doubt something else will blow up/go on fire/fail/leak/grind/shudder/fall off and countless other things that have happened with the car *knock wood* so far but for now I am happy!!

I think you have a short in or around the fuse box for the cranking signal to be fired off the acc switch. As the starter isn't disengauging it also suggests that the ign switch is also shorted to the starter switch. It'd be pretty easy to check youself as the most likely point is somewhere around where the fire occured.

Al - After the fire a mate (who is an auto elec) fixed the short. He did not wire up the rest of the car (he had to go). After he found where it was shorting he made sure the wiring was re-wired as per pre-fire wiring (which he still said was dodgey his words were "man if i saw this car to buy i'd rip this shit out in front of his face and say fix it this is rough as i wouldnt give a ****") but i guess it does the job for now (full rewiring of car goes on the black list).

So yeah the shorting I think you're on the money Dave I don't think is near where the fire was - that was actually quite far away from anything else (near the air filter/front of the car). He checked the fuse box visually said it seemed ok. Since the car starts on ACC i'm thinking as the wires heated up which caused the fire, they must have heated up somewhere back in the loom to the ignition and melted into each other also. I'll have to trace it back I'm just wondering if there is an easier way to do this than rip every loom apart (starting with the one involved in the short/fire) and tracing it back.

I've ripped out my whole panels around my ignition barrel in preparation - gonna be a long weekend.

That smell your talking about sounds like what we call the "dollar smell" It usually means it costs lots of $$$ to fix.

If you do keep running the car with the starter engaged, most likely the starter will throw her legs outta bed :D (her windings)

I see the other blokes were doing a push button start switch "mod"... You could put a start switch in over the ignition (so that it can only be started when the key is at ignition) and bypass that wire that may be melted, and wire in a relay to take the soleniod load.

Will send you an email if you like with a picture of how to do it.

Cheers

Sumo

  • 3 months later...

hii guys, I just had the same probolem, on the morning when I tried to start it up, it will give out that grinding noise (like when we try to start the engine after it is running) and the car wont start, I live in sydney does anyone know where I could get the started motor re-condiitioned (I never have this problem before)

cheers

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • See if you can thermal epoxy a heatsink or two onto it?
    • The other problem was one of those "oh shit we are going to die moments". Basically the high spec Q50s have a full electric steering rack, and the povo ones had a regular hydraulic rack with an electric pump.  So couple of laps into session 5 as I came into turn 2 (big run off now, happily), the dash turned into a christmas tree and the steering became super heavy and I went well off. I assumed it was a tyre failure so limped to the pits, but everything was OK. But....the master warning light was still on so I checked the DTCs and saw – C13E6 “Heat Protection”. Yes, that bloody steering rack computer sitting where the oil cooler should be has its own sensors and error logic, and decided I was using the steering wheel too much. I really appreciated the helpful information in the manual (my bold) POSSIBLE CAUSE • Continuing the overloading steering (Sports driving in the circuit etc,) “DATA MONITOR” >> “C/M TEMPERATURE”. The rise of steering force motor internal temperature caused the protection function to operate. This is not a system malfunction. INSPECTION END So, basically the electric motor in the steering rack got to 150c, and it decided to shut down without warning for my safety. Didn't feel safe. Short term I'll see if I can duct some air to that motor (the engine bay is sealed pretty tight). Long term, depending on how often this happens, I'll look into swapping the povo spec electric/hydraulic rack in. While the rack should be fine the power supply to the pump will be a pain and might be best to deal with it when I add a PDM.
    • And finally, 2 problems I really need to sort.  Firstly as Matt said the auto trans is not happy as it gets hot - I couldn't log the temps but the gauge showed 90o. On the first day I took it out back in Feb, because the coolant was getting hot I never got to any auto trans issues; but on this day by late session 3 and then really clearly in 4 and 5 as it got hotter it just would not shift up. You can hear the issue really clearly at 12:55 and 16:20 on the vid. So the good news is, literally this week Ecutek finally released tuning for the jatco 7 speed. I'll have a chat to Racebox and see what they can do electrically to keep it cooler and to get the gears, if anything. That will likely take some R&D and can only really happen on track as it never gets even warm with road use. I've also picked up some eye wateringly expensive Redline D6 ATF to try, it had the highest viscosity I could find at 100o so we will see if that helps (just waiting for some oil pan gaskets so I can change it properly). If neither of those work I need to remove the coolant/trans interwarmer and the radiator cooler and go to an external cooler....somewhere.....(goodbye washer reservoir?), and if that fails give up on this mad idea and wait for Nissan to release the manual 400R
    • So, what else.... Power. I don't know what it is making because I haven't done a post tune dyno run yet; I will when I get a chance. It was 240rwkw dead stock. Conclusion from the day....it does not need a single kw more until I sort some other stuff. It comes on so hard that I could hear the twin N1 turbos on the R32 crying, and I just can't use what it has around a tight track with the current setup. Brakes. They are perfect. Hit them hard all day and they never felt like having an issue; you can see in the video we were making ground on much lighter cars on better tyres under brakes. They are standard (red sport) calipers, standard size discs in DBA5000 2 piece, Winmax pads and Motul RBF600 fluid, all from Matty at Racebrakes Sydney. Keeping in mind the car is more powerful than my R32 and weighs 1780, he clearly knows his shit. Suspension. This is one of the first areas I need to change. It has electronically controlled dampers from factory, but everything is just way too soft for track work even on the hardest setting (it is nice when hustling on country roads though). In particular it rolls into oversteer mid corner and pitches too much under hard braking so it becomes unstable eg in the turn 1 kink I need to brake early, turn through the kink then brake again so I don't pirouette like an AE86. I need to get some decent shocks with matched springs and sway bars ASAP, even if it is just a v1 setup until I work out a proper race/rally setup later. Tyres. I am running Yoko A052 in 235/45/18 all round, because that was what I could get in approximately the right height on wheels I had in the shed (Rays/Nismo 18x8 off the old Leaf actually!). As track tyres they are pretty poor; I note GTSBoy recently posted a porker comparo video including them where they were about the same as AD09.....that is nothing like a top line track tyre. I'll start getting that sorted but realistically I should get proper sized wheels first (likely 9.5 +38 front and 11 +55 at the rear, so a custom order, and I can't rotate them like the R32), then work out what the best tyre option is. BTW on that, Targa Tas had gone to road tyres instead of semi slicks now so that is a whole other world of choices to sort. Diff. This is the other thing that urgently needs to be addressed. It left massive 1s out of the fish hook all day, even when I was trying not too (you can also hear it reving on the video, and see the RPM rising too fast compared to speed in the data). It has an open diff that Infiniti optimistically called a B-LSD for "Brake Limited Slip Diff". It does good straight line standing start 11s but it is woeful on the track. Nismo seem to make a 2 way for it.
    • Also, I logged some data from the ECU for each session (mostly oil pressures and various temps, but also speed, revs etc, can't believe I forgot accelerator position). The Ecutek data loads nicely to datazap, I got good data from sessions 2, 3 and 4: https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-2?log=0&data=7 https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-3?log=0&data=6 https://datazap.me/u/duncanhandleyhgeconsultingcomau/250813-wakefield-session-4?log=0&data=6 Each session is cut into 3 files but loaded together, you can change between them in the top left. As the test sessions are mostly about the car, not me, I basically start by checking the oil pressure (good, or at least consistent all day). These have an electrically controlled oil pump which targets 25psi(!) at low load and 50 at high. I'm running a much thicker oil than recommended by nissan (they said 0w20, I'm running 10w40) so its a little higher. The main thing is that it doesn't drop too far, eg in the long left hand fish hook, or under brakes so I know I'm not getting oil surge. Good start. Then Oil and Coolant temp, plus intercooler and intake temps, like this: Keeping in mind ambient was about 5o at session 2, I'd say the oil temp is good. The coolant temp as OK but a big worry for hot days (it was getting to 110 back in Feb when it was 35o) so I need to keep addressing that. The water to air intercooler is working totally backwards where we get 5o air in the intake, squish/warm it in the turbos (unknown temp) then run it through the intercoolers which are say 65o max in this case, then the result is 20o air into the engine......the day was too atypical to draw a conclusion on that I think, in the united states of freedom they do a lot of upsizing the intercooler and heat exchanger cores to get those temps down but they were OK this time. The other interesting (but not concerning) part for me was the turbo speed vs boost graph: I circled an example from the main straight. With the tune boost peaks at around 18psi but it deliberately drops to about 14psi at redline because the turbos are tiny - they choke at high revs and just create more heat than power if you run them hard all the way. But you can also see the turbo speed at the same time; it raises from about 180,000rpm to 210,000rpm which the boost falls....imagine the turbine speed if they held 18psi to redline. The wastegates are electrically controlled so there is a heap of logic about boost target, actual boost, delta etc etc but it all seems to work well
×
×
  • Create New...