s2d4

After all that, I am thinking of modifying the stock fuel tank to suit, probably making the bottom of it flat too so I can add a diffusor.

Yeap, complete stock internals. I've spoken to the tuner and he said the owner gave him instructions to do a "safe" tune. He said he didn't actually push the engine much...... so on that note, I don't know what to think actually. I gave instructions that this engine will only need to last 3000kms/1 year as I don't use it as a daily, it did less than that in the year that I've owned it thus far. The owner kind of does his own things rather than what I had ask of him on quite a few occasions already which meant I had to go back to get it corrected or show him exactly where to put things. on that note, I am considering trying out another place to check on a few things. Every now and then on startup I get belt skip sounds as well and I had a full timing belt service.

http://www.rhdjapan.com/catalogsearch/resu...el=0&flag=1 If you must buy a kit from japan that is...

is the chrome trim from the windows?

Well, 35A is 6ms, 117B is 7ms and the 225/250 is 15ms to energise. I assumed that is because of the flow rate required for twin waste gates as there wouldn't be a point for Ray Hall to go bigger if its just the solenoid.

Starting from left to right, 35A, 117B, then something slightly larger than the 225/250 series 117B with the required fittings, it's about the same size as the Apexi AVCR Boost Solenoid, Nothing crazy like the 225/250 series and has double the flow of the 35A valve. It didn't have the labels coz they didn't have one in stock but stored the solenoid and the valves so it was made up in less than a minute. Total price was just shy of 80 including GST.

I've got the day off tomorrow so I'll pay him a visit. Will then take photos of their sizes as well as pricing of each of them.

Further comments by the distributor: "The 117B is not better, just smaller and lighter, twice the flow rate of the 35A, where as the 225B is almost three times the flow rate of the 35A. With the base mounted version you need to buy base as well, not really practical for a stand alone inline valve. More used for multiple valve applications!! There are other ways we can go, that are still smaller than these with higher flow rates of the 35A"

This is what the distributor said about the part number provided by ray for the small one (35A series): "Not really, as the ACR is a manifold mounted (base mounted) unit." As for the big one, the distributor said "As is the 250 series is the base mounted model of the 225 series" So Ray is using the base mounted versions for big and small. I am not sure what base mount actually means though. This what the distributor recommends: "I still think best valve for your application is the 117B!!! as previously quoted." Let me guess, you spoke to Dan at pneumatic solutions? Which air supply shop is making the 225B for you? EDIT Apparently base mounted means this.

The picture supplied by Vipec web site actually states Small mac valve as 35A-ACA-DDBA-1BA This is the information I got from the MAC valve distributor: Small - "Your price for 35A-ACA-DDBA-1BA MOD T65C - $72.75" Big - "Valve is a 250B valve….. but it is a seriously big unit. 250B-551BA $159.06 + GST ex-stock!" I'll throw that number you got from ray with the distributor and see what he says.

Yeah, I am actually an electrical/control systems engineer albeit a rather junior one at this stage. It's probably a good idea to get one of the mech guys that specialises in hydraulics to go over some points. I don't see as it arguing actually, more like questioning so I can fully understand why you are against it. Pretty sure -10 reducing down to -8 is different to two -6 lines into an -8 as it actually isn't reduced. A better choice would be to set up each 044 pump with -6 lines feeding directly into each end of the fuel rail. There is no bottleneck on the feed side as nothing in the fuel system is smaller then the outlet size of the 044. This statment shows your lack of knowledge or understanding of "fluid dynamics" as you say... If 100gpm from one pump gets pushed into a -8 line it will flow exactily the same as if 100gpm was pushed into the same -8 line at the same pressure... 100gpm is 100gpm reguardless of the the number of pumps delivering it. Umm, what you are saying is pretty obvious but I was actually referring to the reducer, -10 to single -8 or -8 to single -6. The flow will be dictated by how much the lower size line will allow and it will be done at an unnecessary pressure level (more wear) as the pump draws more current. This is wrong?

Awesome questions and answers in this thread. XRATED, If you don't mind me asking (since I have a habit of asking you things), Which plenum are you using? I am also be very interested in your quest of the perfect seal with your set up as I would imagine the response should improve, as well as higher power/torque figures.

I have my car back now and the final power figure was 398hp@16 psi. The car is running better than it has ever been and there is no hesitation as well as smooth power delivery. Does this figure sound right if all the supporting mods are done bar the internals (although I have gone for tomei 260/9.15 cams)? 16psi doesn't seem like the gt2530s are well into their efficiency range? The avcr solenoid doesn't seem to be too happy either as it kind of boost up then dips then stays roughly around the 16psi mark. I am probably going to get myself a MAC valve to hopefully iron this out. The owner mentioned that the engine doesn't seem to produce anymore power with no explanations so I will speak to the tuner in a couple of more days. What do you guys think?

Anyone tried the okada projects set up? They suggested that it increases the current by 4x?

I agree that the last pump that you posted would work better since you can go -8 then to twin -6 into a dual feed rail. This way there will not be a pressure build up at the reducers (as there isn't any to become a bottleneck). I am pretty sure my fluid dynamics wasn't off since its common knowledge that you can only flow as much as the smallest section of pipe/line will allow. It is also a well known fact that pumps will wear out faster trying to push the same flow over a smaller pipe. As for the sizing in combination with the orientation since it isn't inline, by the time fittings are attached, the unit can become relative fat and I am not too sure where it will fit in an external setup. This wouldn't be a problem in the boot though. Pretty sure -10 reducing down to -8 is different to two -6 lines into an -8 as it actually isn't reduced. A better choice would be to set up each 044 pump with -6 lines feeding directly into each end of the fuel rail. There is no bottleneck on the feed side as nothing in the fuel system is smaller then the outlet size of the 044. The two occasions where your own single setup of 044 ran at around 400kw + nitrous, did you upgrade the fuel rail? stock fuel line? were you maxing them out with the addition of nitrous oxide as it allow the engine to burn more fuel and air? Was it tuned for the effects of the nitrous shot? Example 2 didn't have knock control or pressure drop ignition cut in the ecu just some gauges and warning light hence the driver was able to run it for a few seconds in that situation. Example 3 sounds a bit odd, wouldn't one of the first things to check when you drop fuel pressure is the actual pump? 1. I don't need to save money on fuel system components - I agree, not sure about 900+ vs 400 though since a single 044 will support 600HP+ which is more than enough for most track cars so doubling isn't a bad idea for a peace of mind? 2. Less components= Less things to fail - I agree to a certain degree, case in point, push rod vs overhead cams. Although there are quite a few good pushrod engines out there. 3. Simpler to operate and control - Just let the fuel pump controller control the relays which feeds the +12Vdc straight from the battery. If you are worried about the temperature, add a cooler as they are only 100+ 4. Easier to install and package - I guess tightening a few extra fittings and one line shouldn't be too hard? Most surge tanks that are available are suited to the two pump set up so packaging isn't an issue here I think. 5. Less fittings and thus less points of failure/leaks - same thing as number 2, just different wording. I doubt that anyone would not run an Oil cooler/filter relocation set up just because of this issue. 6. The one pump is of better quality than multiple cheaper pumps - this is one area that I am not too sure about as the 044 is "used by Japanese European & Australian tuner shops, JGTC cars, Touring cars, almost all WRC cars, and many more. Quite possibly, the most popular aftermarket fuel pump" In addition, I tend to think german stuff is better than American in most cases, especially automotive related. A lot of german road cars also uses bosch fuel pumps so maybe the quality is there? 7. Quicker to diagnose a problem with the fuel delivery - check the fuel pump and other fuel line components when the fuel pressure drop. Not sure what to do if you can't visibly find any faults? change the pumps. Use knock control and pressure drop ignition cut in the ecu to prevent damage. btw, I am just asking questions and voicing some concerns to get a better understanding, not taking a pot shot at you or anything. My apologies if you were offended but there is no need to call me a little boy.

No, that is the one you bought.

The addition of 85% ethanol cools down the entire line as well as combustion due to its properties. Thus the heating effect will be dramatically less than for bp98.

You are right that I haven't had experience with the block pumps. But I think the size is a valid point as there is minimal space to place a big one outside of the car as suggested so it would have to be inside. You've kind of just answered my concerns with the large dash fittings moving into small dash fittings. The 600hp-650hp ones are -8, anything over that goes up to -10 and -12. For the purpose of Flowing 660hp equivalent worth of 98 fuel due to e85, I wouldn't max out the 600hp-650hp range of pumps so I am left with either the -10 or -12 setup. Wouldn't perceived pressure at the outlet of the pump increase if the line is reduced down to -8 then distribute into 2x-6? You would have to pump harder (higher rate of wear and tear) to have the same flow through a small pipe so to speak if fluid mechanics is true. The manufacturer set those minimal requirements for obvious reasons? If the flow rating is based on the particular line size, the pressure increases when you reduce the line size and in this case, it is not actually flowing more so the flow rating would no longer be valid. You are effectively choking the pump so it would no longer run at its ratings. This principle applies to exhaust gases and the exhaust pipes since it will only flow as much as the smallest cross section area will allow, thus choking the turbos which results in the reduction of the turbo's efficiency. As for the check valve placement, since the check valve would require a certain pressure before it'll open up, it'll place more restriction(higher ratio)on the low pressure side? On the high pressure side, say 3 bar (~44psi) would easily out flow the 0.5psi requirement for the check valves to open up? I wanted to know what makes you so adamant that there would be a higher risk for twin pumps if precautions were taken care of so I would like to find out the cases. You mentioned one didn't use check valves so that's due to poor setup. I wanted to know under what conditions did the other one fail to figure out if its a set up fault or something else. But you never answered this question so no one knows how those fail at this stage. Did they use knock control/monitor? fuel pressure drop ignition cut? having the fuel pressure sensors/switches placed between the check valves and the pumps on the feed side?

R31Nismoid and yourself are both right. There have been plenty of reports of the stock lines flowing enough to support those figures.

Ebay part number: 35A-AAA-DABA-1BA http://www.macvalves.com/products/Three_Way/Small/35/35.pdf page 3, 240Vac/60Hz or 220Vac/50Hz

I have checked the spec sheet on the website.......

So far you haven't answered the specific questions but rather start on something else that is already established or completely ignore the question to begin with. Your answers with regards to the evidence of what you've seen also vary from post to post without answering the actual question. As for the weldon pumps, there are two inline pumps that are both e85 incompatible. The block mounted ones I did mistaken as the in tank set up, but the massive dash fittings requirement still stands which wouldn't work with any fuel rail kit out there without a reducer thus restricting flow, check valve on the suction side also restricts flow.. In addition the block mounted ones' orientation makes no sense for an under car design as the inline would be suitable. Last but not least, these are gigantic units which seems to rather inefficient for the weight and size.

I agree with you there. There are numerous fittings company that provide a special check valve specifically for bosch line of motorsport pumps and they all go on the feed side...

cusco and hks kansai (or top secret) sticker on the strut bar? Identity crisis?

Lol, my brain has been ticking all weekend. Interesting discussions indeed. I am trying to established the difference between single and twins but this is kind of all over the place. As for the second pump turned on at a preset, that makes no sense as the second pump is there to eliminate surge so they are both on. I guess the top designs would be to shut the second pump off when its not in power range but doesn't seem to be necessary here. So what you are saying is that 044 is not as good as weldon or fuel lab pump. Thus the twin set up of 044 will not be as good as single set up of weldon or fuel lab pump. btw, looking at the weldon inline pumps, as someone mentioned in the past. They do not cater to E85 so can not be used as a single external setup so not sure how you would push the inline so much in an e85 setup. As for the in tank weldon pumps, they are all too big in size which require modification to factory tank or a gigantic surge tank, the smaller but still too big ones don't support enough (maxing out at 600hp/650hp) to eliminate surge, , massive dash fittings (one that can be chosen to safe guard fuel surge at 650hp, are -10 and above otherwise you are maxing out the pump and thus introduces reliabiity issues) which wouldn't work unless you use a reducer and thus reducing flow, this also means it won't work properly with any of the off the shelf fuel rail kits and costs of 700 USD +. you didn't mention anything about the second twin 044 set up that failed? What I am trying to establish here is the difference with the single and twin if they are both set up correctly by taking care of precautions such as knock monitor/control in the ecu, wideband sensor, Fuel pressure drop ignition cut and check valves etc. You've been saying that you wouldn't notice the single pump failure characteristics in a twin pump so the question was directed specifically at the single pump symptoms under the proposed setup. Please be specific here as the leaning out part is well established for both single and twins, under the possible failing types of scenarios mentioned previously. More information is always good