Excessive Wheelspin In The Wet

[benro2]

Hey guys,

Today, as you may know, it was raining pretty hard in the Penrith / Blue Mountains area. I was heading up Old Bathurst Road and the rain had pretty much stopped, but the roads were still soaked. As I was turning up a gradual LH curve in the road, just before the hairpins, but where the hill is quite steep, I noticed the back end starting to drift a little. I was doing about 50 km/h and wasn't doing anything "stupid". Just trying to maintain a constant speed and drive smoothly.

Then, after the final hairpin, the hill is still quite steep, and I was using maybe 1/5 to 1/4 throttle. I was doing around 40-50km/h in 3rd gear, with about 5 psi boost at around 2000 rpm, and again the back end started to drift as I had wheelspin for a few metres.

I should probably mention at this point that my car is an auto R33 Series II GTS-T, but I have installed a half-working Jaycar IEBC (electronic boost controller), so it builds boost *very* quickly. That is why I was making 5 psi with less than 1/4 throttle at such low rpm. (I will be getting the low/high boost switch working soon so that I don't have excessive boost buildup in the wet!)

Anyway, what I wanted to ask is, is it just my car, or does everyone's R33 have bad power down, especially in the wet? My car is stock, including suspension, exhaust, etc., except for the aforementioned EBC and an Apexi pod air filter. My tyres are Nexen N2000's @ 225/50R16 and have about 50-60% tread left. They supposedly have the highest grip rating, but they aren't Silica compound tyres.

I have had other situations where I couldn't help but get wheelspin in the wet, like out out steep driveways, for instance. I don't think it would have been possible for me to use any less throttle than I was - I was literally *just* touching the pedal and the wheels would spin.

I also drive a VZ Calais which has 225/55R17's and it has excellent grip, even in the wet. The power and torque figures are quite similar to the Skyline's, yet I have never had any problems with wheelspin in the wet (the traction control light would light up and tell me anyway).

So, any ideas? Although it may be fun sometimes, it can be quite disturbing to feel the back of the car drift away when you're not intending it to, especially when trying to maintain a sensible, constant speed on a relatively straight road!

[MANWHORE]

combination of shit tyres and accelerating too fast.

I try not to hit any boost at all in the wet. to hit 5psi at 2000 rpm, that's pretty much wot!

[MANWHORE]

PS: I have good tyres and I have heaps of traction in the wet

[GorGasm]

worn out nexens = crap in the wet for sure. Also too much boost for the wet by the sounds of things too.

[Cubes]

Whats the condition of your diff like?

A slightly open wheeling VLSD makes for horrid traction in the wet.

How worn tyres are makes a massive difference to wet traction also.

[micko32]

its the tyres nexens are low range budget tyres get something better

[benro2]

combination of shit tyres and accelerating too fast.

I try not to hit any boost at all in the wet. to hit 5psi at 2000 rpm, that's pretty much wot!

Well, like I said, it was no more than 1/4 throttle, maybe even 1/5. It's the EBC that's causing that much boost at that throttle opening. I've gotta get the high/low boost switch working so I can make it more like stock for the wet.

As for accelerating too fast, well I had a shitty 1.3L old Barina behind me and he was keeping up just fine! And no, I wasn't trying to out-accelerate him!

Whats the condition of your diff like?

A slightly open wheeling VLSD makes for horrid traction in the wet.

How worn tyres are makes a massive difference to wet traction also.

I'm not sure how my diff is. Is there a way to test it? And what do you mean by VLSD? I assume you mean the active LSD that was an option on GTS-T's, the viscous one that was the same as the GTR's? Well I'm almost certain I don't have that one.

Well, if I can jab the accelerator pedal and make the back end slide out, does that mean my LSD is working properly? I would have thought a non-LSD equipped car, or one with a stuffed LSD, wouldn't do that? It would just spin the inside wheel but stay on the intended line of travel?

its the tyres nexens are low range budget tyres get something better

Yeah, well I went in to the tyre place ages ago with the full intention of buying a really good set of Bridgestones but the guy actually talked me out of those and insisted I try the Nexens! They were a whole lot better than the last set initially, but maybe until around 70-80% tread wear. They're like 50-60% now.

[R31Nismoid]

Of course he made you buy a crap brand.

They make more money on them due to better margins.

So the saleman will sprong whatever he can

[XRAIDER]

I find i have a similar problem, but i had dunlops, have you tried using the snow button when its wet and slippery, I find it works really well, the only time it would spin is if you were on a painted line but would instantly stop spinning as soon as it detects wheel spin if that makes sense, anyway give that a try it worked for me!

[benro2]

Of course he made you buy a crap brand.

They make more money on them due to better margins.

So the saleman will sprong whatever he can

Bastards! I would have thought they'd make higher margins on the more expensive tyres? Oh well, I probably saved about $500 so I spose that's kinda good...

I find i have a similar problem, but i had dunlops, have you tried using the snow button when its wet and slippery, I find it works really well, the only time it would spin is if you were on a painted line but would instantly stop spinning as soon as it detects wheel spin if that makes sense, anyway give that a try it worked for me!

No, I haven't actually tried the snow button in the wet, but AFAIK all that does is start in 2nd gear, instead of 1st? When you say it "detects" wheelspin, do you mean it's some sort of traction control system? I'm pretty sure these things don't have any form of traction control

My problem was actually in 3rd gear with very little throttle, but I suspect it was because the wastegate was fully shut and the boost was building very gradually over a few seconds, even though my foot was held in a constant position, so I may have been accelerating harder than I thought. Still, like I said, a 1.3L Barina was keeping up with me fine. I'm not sure if he was giving it all it had, though.

These IEBC's (and I suspect any type of EBC) do weird stuff with the auto's - the auto will tend to hold a higher gear as you have more boost and thus more torque available, which can be a bit annoying at times when you need a burst of power, but luckily it can usually be fixed by quickly flexing your foot and making it kickdown. But, doing this in the wet would obviously be bad...very bad! In fact, I was just thinking what would happen if it kicked down just before I got wheelspin for the second time. I thought I'd be fine in 3rd, and then what happens? I get wheelspin in 3rd at a quarter throttle! No wonder why people say a turbocharged RWD car is a recipe for trouble in the wet! I never used to believe them, until I had a few little experiences like the one above. I don't think it's so much to do with the amount of outright power you have, it's more how the boost builds deceptively, or quickly, depending on how you're driving, which can cause a break of traction quite suddenly.

Anyway, I would like to know how to find out if my LSD has had it. Anyone know? And is there a cheap way to fix it?

[Wink]

I have had the same problem as you. I drive a EBC'd Auto R33 GTST. I fixed it by getting new tyres as my old ones were down to the belts due to a trackday.

Frankly, there's nothing wrong with your car setup - your tyres are just crap in the wet that's all.

Snow button works okay for situations like this.

[Kinks]

Nexen N2000's are VERY ordinary in the wet. I have a set as compliance tyres and when they are worn out I will be putting some decent tyres on.

In the dry they feel pretty decent but in the wet they are almost as bad as Falken 326's.

[benro2]

Nexen N2000's are VERY ordinary in the wet. I have a set as compliance tyres and when they are worn out I will be putting some decent tyres on.

In the dry they feel pretty decent but in the wet they are almost as bad as Falken 326's.

Yep, I was beginning to think that! When they were brand new they weren't bad, but I was comparing them to nearly bald (but brand name) tyres. In the dry they seem pretty good, very quiet, don't screech much around corners, but in the wet.... they leave a lot to be desired! I had nothing really to compare them to so I was blaming the car.

However, what's with the Calais? How come, even with more than 40,000 km's on the tyres, it grips a whole lot better in the wet? I think it has Bridgestones on it, but I can't remember the exact model number, but they are 225's. Could it be that the car weighs probably over 250kg more? Or could it be that it's not turbocharged, so the power delivery is more linear? Or, maybe it's because 1st gear is a lot higher than the Skyline's, so coming out of steep, wet driveways is less of a problem? I dunno, but comparing that to the Skyline, didn't give the Skyline a very good name in the wet!

Surely brand name tyres with 50% grip on them can't be better in the wet than Nexen's with 80-100% grip?

[Cubes]

I used to own a VS 5ltr 5speed with IRS that was horrid in the wet. It was mildly cammed and would clear its throat around 3000rpm.

Also.... The RB20DET was far worse in the wet than the current Rb30DET even though the rb30det makes a whole lot more power down low. The 3ltr has improved throttle control in the wet 10fold.

[XRAIDER]

Bastards! I would have thought they'd make higher margins on the more expensive tyres? Oh well, I probably saved about $500 so I spose that's kinda good...

No, I haven't actually tried the snow button in the wet, but AFAIK all that does is start in 2nd gear, instead of 1st? When you say it "detects" wheelspin, do you mean it's some sort of traction control system? I'm pretty sure these things don't have any form of traction control

well i'm not sure weather its traction control but it like stops driving when it wheel spins, if that makes sense um yea Anyway i have some RE 55 Runflats on the back they grip really well!

[Kinks]

don't screech much around corners

not if you're driving like a grandma. Mine howl like buggery.

Surely brand name tyres with 50% grip on them can't be better in the wet than Nexen's with 80-100% grip?

Sure they can. You just don't have an appreciation for how much difference good tyres can make.

The Calais is also a barge, and with no turbo the torque is always linear with respect to your right foot. Skylines are also better balanced, so overpowering in the wet = wheelspin = sideways. I bet a Calais's natural tendency is to have better rear grip and understeer on the limit. Keeps the bogans safe

[scathing]

Bastards! I would have thought they'd make higher margins on the more expensive tyres? Oh well, I probably saved about $500 so I spose that's kinda good...

They make the highest margins on whichever tyre manufacturer gives them the biggest discount.

My understanding (and maybe DaFuca could comment, as a tyre retailer) is that its a low-margin business. Maybe the distributors pad their prices out, but the tyre shops have got very little to work with from the standard wholesale price to the recommended retail. And you can't charge above RRP, since someone down the road is sure to charge at RRP.

So when some companies get discounts from a the distributors, of course they'll either push those tyres while leaving them at RRP or, under negotiation, do you a "deal" on them. Did the guy offer you a few bucks off the Nexens, or free balancing or some other sweetener, as well when you said you had the Bridgestones in mind?

[ztuned]

hey what is the 'snow button' and where is it located on a 1997 r33 s2

i've only had my car for a month so i would like to know

and does anyone have good reccomendation for tyres in the wet?

cheers

Edited February 27, 2007 by ztuned

[scathing]

hey what is the 'snow button'

On an auto car without a dynamic AWD setup, most of them just start the car in 2nd. In some modern cars with throttle-by-wire, it also dulls the responsiveness from the throttle. In some AWD cars, it'll also set the torque split at 50:50 rather than its usual front or rear bias.

and does anyone have good reccomendation for tyres in the wet?

Goodyear Eagle F1s. They do well in the car magazines' tests for wet weather performance, and when I drove with a mate in the same car as me theirs was a lot more stable.

[benro2]

well i'm not sure weather its traction control but it like stops driving when it wheel spins, if that makes sense um yea

Hmmm... I'm not quite sure what you mean. I guess I'll have to try it next time it rains!

The Calais is also a barge, and with no turbo the torque is always linear with respect to your right foot. Skylines are also better balanced, so overpowering in the wet = wheelspin = sideways. I bet a Calais's natural tendency is to have better rear grip and understeer on the limit. Keeps the bogans safe

What did you mean by Skylines having better balance, therefore equalling more wheelspin? Do you mean front/rear weight distribution, or having more "neutral" handling characteristics, ie: not as understeer-biased as the Calais?

Funnily enough, the Calais actually has pretty damn good handling considering its size and weight. It's the model with the "FE 1.5" suspension, ie: in between the standard setup and the FE2 sports suspension found on the S and SS. There is a corner just off the M4 on my turnoff that I can take fairly easily at 60km/h in the Calais. That's probably 10 or 20 km/h faster than a normal driver, but the Calais doesn't lean much at all and generally doesn't feel "strained". In other words, I can look down at the speedo and expect to see 50 km/h, not 60 km/h. In the same corner in my Skyline, 60 km/h actually feels like 60 km/h. I'm not saying that it wouldn't out-corner the Calais, but you certainly know you're cornering fast and are very aware of it, whereas in the Calais it can be deceptively fast.

Did the guy offer you a few bucks off the Nexens, or free balancing or some other sweetener, as well when you said you had the Bridgestones in mind?

Yep, he offered me an "excellent price". I had no idea of their going price, but I was planning to buy some performance Bridgestones (can't remember which but I think they'd just placed highly in a Wheels or Motor tyre test) and these Nexens were close to half price. He told me stories of how previous customers had also come in wanting to buy expensive tyres but had supposedly taken his advice and bought the Nexens, even with a money-back guarantee, and he'd only heard good feedback from them. I wasn't overly keen on spending $1000+ on tyres at the time, so I went with the ~$550 Nexens. Guess I'll know what to say next time eh?

hey what is the 'snow button' and where is it located on a 1997 r33 s2

i've only had my car for a month so i would like to know

I presume the snow button will only appear in an auto car. Can anyone verify this? This is because AFAIK all it does is make the car start off in 2nd gear from a standstill. It is located down near the drink holder and is a 3-way rocker switch. It should read Snow > Normal > Power (I think). It normally isn't lit up, but when Snow is selected it will have a green light on, and when on Power it will have a orange/red light. Power just holds lower gears for longer and may make upshifts slightly faster.