bleed valve...

[WazR32GTSt]

i'm looking for some sort of cheap upgrade for my r32gtst with cat-back and filter and CAI.

i was thinking some sort of boost control but i don't wanna increase boost too much just bring it on a bit earlier. will a cheepo bleed valve-type boost controller be effective? (ie turbosmart)

what about the idea in this autospeed article: http://www.autospeed.com/A_0028/cms/article.html

?

will this bring boost on earlier and if so by how much.

also (sorry about the many q's), where is the hose you attach the boost controller onto?

Cheers,

Waz.

[adam 32]

a bleed valve will not bring on boost earlier as it simply bleeds the air away from the actuator line

an electronic boost controller will bring boost in earlier as most EBC's have a GAIN function, which holds the wastegate shut until the desired boost pressure is reached, rather than bleeding off the air...

you need to bleed air away from the actuator line which comes out the 'top' of your internal actuator bolted onto the turbo (a picture may be of greater assistance) and for an EBC you will normally need a reading from the plenum, so just put a t-piece in one of the lines running from the plenum (preferably NOT the fuel pressure line)

and make sure u have a boost guage before boosting the car, as the stock one is not accurate enough

[Emre]

A bleed valve can work just as effective as an EBC and bring the car on boost just as quick as an EBC.

Give Nige @ Ice a call and he will hook one up for you fairly cheap.

[Zahos]

just a normal bleed valve is crap.

That article on brilliant boost was crap too.

An EBC is the best option, but if you cant justify forking out the cash for something you could do cheaper (and almost as well), then go for this setup.

You should refer to part 1 of this article.

If you dont go all the way and get the check valve listed in part 2, then dont bother at all.

I got the fist 2 valves from Norgren themselves (listed in the article). Give em a call and they will send to you via credit card purchase.

For the check valve, I called everywhere, and the only ppl able to help me were ENZED. So give them a call for the check valve, and you could also get all your hoses and fittings from them too.

Zahos

[adam 32]

a bleed valve is as good as an EBC?

thats the biggest load of shit ive heard in a while

how can simple, uncontrolled valve which bleeds pressure be just as good as an electronically controlled, dual solenoid valve? bleed valves are a piece of shit, and the only people who dont agree are those who havent yet used an EBC. can you please think before you type and not give people such bad advice

[Emre]

I am sorry (NOT) Adam, i didn't mean to discredit your expert opinion on the matter.

I just can't afford an expensive EBC and use a bleed valve instead. To justify my choice, i just give bad advice in threads like this and try to veer people from using an EBC, cause i can't.

Read the topic starters (Waz) question again.

i'm looking for some sort of cheap upgrade for my r32gtst with cat-back and filter and CAI.....

To answer his question again,

Yes, a well setup bleed valve will work just as effective as an EBC and bring the car on boost just as quick as an EBC can. Possible boost spike and electronic in car adjustment would be the only difference in between a bleed valve and an EBC. As long as your boost spike is manageable (if you have one) and you don't want to change your boost setting every 5 mins, there wouldn't be any more advantage in using an EBC.

[Zahos]

OK, to shed some light on the matter...

I can't justify spending the cash on an EBC, so I went for the setup in the autospeed article "Audi DIY boost controller 2"

I must admit, it works very well, as I can control wastegate creep with the preasure relief valve, and check valve, and I hold (relatively) steady boost with the the preasure regulator valve.

However bleeds valves are not as good b/c they can be affected by:

- underboonet temparatures

- ambient air temperatures

And EBC has no problem with these, and can control a steady level of boost regardless.

I have not used an EBC in my own car, but I have seen how well it works in other cars, and it is more reliable than a bleed valve.

But we all have our preferences, and our own reasons for those preferences. At the end of the day, it is up to you what you think is more suitable for your own application....

Zahos

[WazR32GTSt]

zahos,

read the 'audi DIY boost control' article - sounds very simple actually. but would it still work with just the presure relief valve controlling wastegate creep and letting the stock solenoid control the boost pressure?

might check around for some shops that sell these items for air compressors...

Waz.

[Zahos]

It would, but consider this....

Standard boost is 5psi, then jumps to 7psi

The preasure relief valve will have to be adjusted to hold of any air getting to the wastegate up to 5psi only. If you set it to hold off more than that, you will get spikes.

Also, air only flows 1 direction through that valve, so you WILL need the check valve aswell, otherwise there will be air trapped between the valve, and the wastegate, and iboost will be worse after the fist gear change (unless the factory solenoid manages to remove that air)

Basically with this setup, it's all or nothing if you ask me, I have tried numerous combinations.

[WazR32GTSt]

that makes sense thanks mate. this looks like a good alternative to a $500+ EBC seeing as i have a severe disability with my wallet! (its empty - that's what)

[adam 32]

Yes, a well setup bleed valve will work just as effective as an EBC and bring the car on boost just as quick as an EBC can

think about the ways in which both solenoids increase boost. it is not possible for them to work in the same way. a bleed valves bleeds air away from the actuator line, which results in problems such as spiking and unrelaible boost control

and EBC holds the wasteagate shut until the desired boost pressure is reached therefore bringing boost on earlier. the solenoids used in EBC's are not only electronically controlled but f better quality than in bleed valves and therefore can control boost more efficicntely

fact: a bleed valve will not bring boost on any earlier

fact: an EBC will, for reasons stated above.

[2fardown]

Adam32: Why be so negative all the time? Please supply us with your inconclusive proof that bleed valves dont bring on boost earlier. Did you test this yourself or are you just going on what others have said?

I myself have a DNA Motorsports bleed valve ($89) I have noticed boost comes on earlier then the factory solenoid. It holds boost spot on 10psi without any spike. Therefore I can not justify spending $500+ on an EBC when an $89 bleed valve does everything I want.

Try and keep your reply civil.

[Zahos]

It is a plain and simple fact that bleed valves dont bring it on much quiker.

Here is why:

For boost to come on as quick as possible, you would need to prevent *ANY* air from reaching the wastegate, so that it stays shut, and every bit of air passing out of your exhaust manifold is used to spool the turbo up quicker.

An EBC can be programmed to do this until you have reached your desired level of boost, then it lets air to the wastegate, and then acts like a bleede valve, bleeding of air so that you can maintain that level of boost.

A bleed valve will let some air get to the wastegate while it is bleeding air off. This small amount of air hitting the wastegate will slowly open it up, giving an effect called wastegate creep. The only way you will spool up quicker with a bleed valve, is if you put a preasure relief valve before your bleed valve. The presure relief valve will stay shut, until enough air preasure is built up to open it, letting air pass through it, thus working in the same priciple as an EBC, but not as efficiently.

Read the articles I listed above, they may explain it a little better than I have.

Zahos

[Zahos]

Oh, and I forgot....

The reason why boost does come on quicker with your bleed valve, rather than with the factory solenoid, is because the factory solenoid lets all the air get to your wastegate before reaching it's operating point (4500rpm???), whearas:

A bleed valve will slowly bleed of some of that air from the word go.

Some setups with bleed valves spike, some don't, I don't know why....

[Dr_Drift]

I had a bleed valve on a customers 180SX which was running 18 psi, the boost started to rise earlier, and from boost till redline there was 0.3 psi fluctuation.

There are good and bad bleed valves, and how they installed also makes a difference.

If you want to make the turbo spool up quicker a simple pressure gate to prevent boost creep can also be fitted, and is very helpfull on sensitive actuators that open easily.

Doc.

[Jay95R33]

WazR32gts-t - you can get bleed valves that have anti wastegate creep built in.

Basicallt it's two adjustable valves.

The first holds boost back until it hits a set level (adjustable level) - this is the anti wastegate creep adjustment.

And the second valve is the bleed valve so you can set how much boost you want.

So you can set it up so the wastegate see's nothing until you've got 10psi, then use the bleed to hold it at 12psi.

Or if you like a bigger rush, you can set it to spike to 14psi and then settle on 12psi etc.....

I'm pretty sure Turbo Smart make ones like this, and I bought one from TurboXS (the TurboXS HPBC) for $135.

That's a cheapish way out, but if your looking for performance not cost, then go straight for a EBC. You can't beat the fully electronic control with feedback etc of a EBC.

J

[adam 32]

i am speaking entirely from experience.

i have tried a turbosmart bleed valve - horrible

GFB bleed valve - better, no spiking and constant boost

blitz EBC - even better, holds boost, brings boost on earlier, and has electronic adjustment

[Emre]

Quoted by Adam 32  

fact: a bleed valve will not bring boost on any earlier  

fact: an EBC will, for reasons stated above.

You are wrong. Zahos's reply explains why.

i am speaking entirely from experience.

Obviously your experience is fairly limited on the issue.

Realize and accept that fact before sounding so authoritative.

[WazR32GTSt]

jay95r33,

thanks for the info mate that's pretty much what i would be after

are there any cheaper ones than the turboXS? i'm not really wanting to pay over $100... and also where would i find this other than autobarn which i refust to go to coz its sh1t and the prices are also sh1t.

Waz.

[WazR32GTSt]

also, ive asked this a couple of times on other threads but everyone dodges the answer for some stupid reason.

where is the boost solenoid located? can i see it from the top of the bay or do i have to remove the heat shieldd from over the turbo?

a pic would be great...

cheers,

Waz.