Roll Cages Cams Approved

[just_racing]

I'm currently building a R32 for circuit racing. Speced for improved production.

Does anybody know anywhere preferably in Brisbane to get a CAMS approved 6 point cage made?

Looking at Bond Roll Bars in Sydney and they are quoting about $1300 delivered. More than happy about the price but i'm not sure about the quality. Also as it is from interstate is must be bolt in not welded.

[Duncan]

hope you know what you are in for mate, running a competitive 32 in improved production will be a tough ask.

Anyway....bond do good quality cages, they are huge in the market down here. Can't see why you can't get it welded in up there - bond have the templates and can cut the bars for you, just get a good local welder to put it together

[just_racing]

Thanks for the advice. Not sure how competative I'll be but i'm sure i'm gunna have some fun in the mean time.

[hrd-hr30]

there's other options for circuit racing than IPRA. As Beer Baron said, its not cheap or easy to make a late model turbo car fast under IPRA rules. AASA are running racing series these days with much more open rules - no turbo restrictors for a start! http://jdmracing.myfastforum.org/index.php Much cheaper motorsport with more of an emphasis on the enjoyment of it. I'm looking around for another skyline or silvia now to go racing with them.

for cages, call Eddie at Ipswich Race Prep, or try Nathan at Motorsport Solutions Australia. They're probably the best value cage builders up here. Haven't got their numbers on me. I had a cage built by Eddie in my old Datsun 1200 coupe (pics below). I just bought another 1200 race car with a Bond cage and its not a patch on my old car - bars are miles away from the shell.

Edited September 9, 2007 by hrd-hr30

[Roy]

Ideally, wouldnt you want the harness bar a little bit higher and a little bit further back? Some of the reading i have done suggests that you actually dont want the harness too short. Having it slightly longer means that in an impact the harness has a little elasticity, (we are talking a few mm) and this softens the intertia the body sees. Which itself is often enough to lessen the bruising on internal organs etc

[Duncan]

I think its determined by where the rear strut towers are roy

[just_racing]

there's other options for circuit racing than IPRA. As Beer Baron said, its not cheap or easy to make a late model turbo car fast under IPRA rules. AASA are running racing series these days with much more open rules - no turbo restrictors for a start! http://jdmracing.myfastforum.org/index.php Much cheaper motorsport with more of an emphasis on the enjoyment of it. I'm looking around for another skyline or silvia now to go racing with them.

for cages, call Eddie at Ipswich Race Prep, or try Nathan at Motorsport Solutions Australia. They're probably the best value cage builders up here. Haven't got their numbers on me. I had a cage built by Eddie in my old Datsun 1200 coupe (pics below). I just bought another 1200 race car with a Bond cage and its not a patch on my old car - bars are miles away from the shell.

Thanks. I will have a look at both those shops for a cage.

I have heard of the AASA at QR. They issue there own licences at the track don't they? Did plan this as a stepping stone but i didn't want to restrict myself by going away from CAMS specs on the car. Do they race anywhere else like Morgan Park etc?

If I can get enough laps under another format that is cheaper I will be happy as I'm on a tight budget.(aren't we all)

Can also get some hillclimbs in too.

I'll check out the web site!!

[hrd-hr30]

yep, AASA is only at QR up here at the moment, but if Lakeside ever reopens its likely to also have AASA events as QR has control of that venue too. I think they run some events in other states too. You can always run to IPRA specs in QRCS, or you could build to IPRA spec without the expensive parts needed for the restrictor - the restrictor design itself, and the low gearing required.

Ideally, wouldnt you want the harness bar a little bit higher and a little bit further back? Some of the reading i have done suggests that you actually dont want the harness too short. Having it slightly longer means that in an impact the harness has a little elasticity, (we are talking a few mm) and this softens the intertia the body sees. Which itself is often enough to lessen the bruising on internal organs etc

shoulder straps should be as short as possible. Ideal angle of the shoulder straps is between horizontal and 10deg below. Its a little sharper than that in this pic taken just after the cage went in. I was planning at that stage to lower the seat to get my fat arse closer to the ground, but ran out of time before the first event after having the cage fitted... took me longer to mess around painting in there than I thought! the cage builder allowed for that in positioning the harness bar.

[Roy]

What is the thinking behind shoulder straps being as short as possible?

Like i mentioned i have come accross a few examples and some experienced race folk that say dont make the harness too short. It seems to be backed up by most of the serious race saloons i see these days with cages built in the last 24 months. The reasoning is that in a big accident it has been shown to reduce the incidence of injuries. (specifically internal bruising, strained ribs etc etc)

Have you heard different?

[hrd-hr30]

What is the thinking behind shoulder straps being as short as possible?

Like i mentioned i have come accross a few examples and some experienced race folk that say dont make the harness too short. It seems to be backed up by most of the serious race saloons i see these days with cages built in the last 24 months. The reasoning is that in a big accident it has been shown to reduce the incidence of injuries. (specifically internal bruising, strained ribs etc etc)

Have you heard different?

harness webbing will stretch 'x' amount per foot in a heavy accident. So the longer you make the shoulder straps the further they will stretch. that means you will get closer to, or hit harder, some of the hard immovable objects in your cabin, and in crease the risk of whiplash or other neck injuries and potentially risk 'submarining' (sliding under the loose harness). The Harness's job is to hold you firmly in place in a heavy accident, not to give you a soft cushiony bungee effect that might let you hit the wheel or cage members. CAMS reccomend shoulder straps should be as short as possible.

[Roy]

Yeh, i still dont know. They make a pretty strong argument for not mouting them to a bar directly behind your seat?!?!?! Whatever you are coomfortable with i suppose. If i had an good cage that included seat rails etc it may be worth beign concerned about. But for what i do with my car. Im comfortable to have the harness a little longer for the reason i have heard/read

[hrd-hr30]

I'd be more inclined to listen to the advice I heard/read from CAMS and belt manufacturers than some local racers.

the idea of short harness straps "causing" rib or other internal injuries is totally backwards logic in my view. its the crash that causes the injuries. the belt's job is to hold you securely in place during the crash to prevent any impact injuries - much nastier than bruised ribs.

if the impact is such that the webbing of the harness causes some injuries, be thankful that that's all that happened to you and thank the harness for saving your arse!

the best thing you can do to mitigate the risk of internal injuries in a high G impact that is use a 3" harness raher than 2" to increase the surface area for the load of the impact to be spread over.

another good reason for short as possible shoulder straps is limited occupant movement in a rollover situation and in the worst case scenario of a seat or its mountings breaking.

Edited September 17, 2007 by hrd-hr30

[Roy]

All good points. I suppose the only thing to add is that the ppl i am listening to are the 3rd most snr scrutineer in Vic, and the other is on the CAMS Safety Committee for Roll OVer Protection etc. He sits on the board that investigates all the tarmac rally accidents and looks at the modes of failures of cages and also any injuries to occupants.

As for the cars being local racers...well not being silly, but i have had a close look at a number of Ford V8 Supercars and they seem to reflect harnesses about 450mm behind the seat. Ditto any number of saloon cars, touring cars and rally cars that are featued in Racecar engineering.

So, there seems to be two schools of thoughts? I can see the merit in both approaches:)

[someonestolecc]

Just intuitively speaking (I don't have race experience etc) I'm thinking that I'd like some stretch if it was me. A mm per metre of stretch at x force is not going to put my head into the rollbar, nor is it going to stop holding me into my seat or in the cage area.... especially if you consider that the stretch (if any) is going to occur only under the an extreme condition (a big hit!)... so, if something has to stretch I'd prefer it to be a couple mm of belt rather than a few mm of body. Same theory as airbags, it's there to absorb after impact.

anyway thought both points were complimentary... the 3" vs 2" thing would of course make much more difference than half a mm of stretch at 5g to nothing in .5 seconds.. :\

between HRD's 1200, the sig and cage talk it makes me really feel how I miss cars

[hrd-hr30]

interesting - can't say I've really looked closely at any of those category's lately. Not a huge fan of the V8's and every time I'm at a rally I'm on a road block out in the forest watching them fly past. I'll keep an eye out in future to see what they're doing.

interesting that some senior officials are saying the opposite of what is recommended in the CAMS manual too. although I have had a scrutineer tell me the GTR's shoulder straps, which went to the rear seat, should have been crossed! I told him I'd rather unclip the harness, take it out and use the lap sash belt than put my neck on the line (literally) for his idea. He certainly wasn't a senior official though!

one more thing on the ROLL CAGE subject though - make sure whoever builds it fills out and signs the CAMS Safety Cage Registration form!

[Roy]

one more thing on the ROLL CAGE subject though - make sure whoever builds it fills out and signs the CAMS Safety Cage Registration form!

LOL..i have a photocopy in my car, a photocopy with my rego papers and the original with my passport

Yeh its interesting to see the different schools of thoughts. There is obvious merit in a number of ways...and probably the slightly different application means that one thing may suit an installation more then the other. I think the most obvious example is that the race cars i look at (inc scrutineered) and cars featured in Racecara Engineerign all have crutch or 5 point harnesses. So that could play a part????

[just_racing]

interesting - can't say I've really looked closely at any of those category's lately. Not a huge fan of the V8's and every time I'm at a rally I'm on a road block out in the forest watching them fly past. I'll keep an eye out in future to see what they're doing.

interesting that some senior officials are saying the opposite of what is recommended in the CAMS manual too. although I have had a scrutineer tell me the GTR's shoulder straps, which went to the rear seat, should have been crossed! I told him I'd rather unclip the harness, take it out and use the lap sash belt than put my neck on the line (literally) for his idea. He certainly wasn't a senior official though!

one more thing on the ROLL CAGE subject though - make sure whoever builds it fills out and signs the CAMS Safety Cage Registration form!

Thanks. I know I know it needed to be approved but didn't know there was a form for it.

[Targa Tom]

All good points. I suppose the only thing to add is that the ppl i am listening to are the 3rd most snr scrutineer in Vic, and the other is on the CAMS Safety Committee for Roll OVer Protection etc. He sits on the board that investigates all the tarmac rally accidents and looks at the modes of failures of cages and also any injuries to occupants.

As for the cars being local racers...well not being silly, but i have had a close look at a number of Ford V8 Supercars and they seem to reflect harnesses about 450mm behind the seat. Ditto any number of saloon cars, touring cars and rally cars that are featued in Racecar engineering.

So, there seems to be two schools of thoughts? I can see the merit in both approaches:)

Always is a couple of ways of choking the cat Roy. We now deal with a cage manufacturer in the UK and their harness bars are moved back for that reason - to give some "shock cord" effect. Even their hans cages have the harness bar low with a second bar giving the required angle... still allowing long harness straps.

Its not like they stretch very far, and I am from the long harness mob. My cage contacts aren't dills either supplying Pro-drive and Ralliart UK.

As for the thread, my first cage was an R32 Bond weld in kit... while you have to notch yourself, they are a tight fit and you can add bars to your own needs... ie cross over intrusion on the drive side.

Hope this helps

TT984

[zebra]

Hey Roy,

You dont have a pic of your cage by any chance, Im thinking that yours is still a relitivley street driven car and i need some ideas/guidence for mine (R33) I really just wanna see how badly it intrudes on passenge/driver room and weather the back seats are still useable and how you mounted the harness.

PM me if you like.

Cheers Andrew

[Dynamix]

I'm currently building a R32 for circuit racing. Speced for improved production.

Does anybody know anywhere preferably in Brisbane to get a CAMS approved 6 point cage made?

Looking at Bond Roll Bars in Sydney and they are quoting about $1300 delivered. More than happy about the price but i'm not sure about the quality. Also as it is from interstate is must be bolt in not welded.

There's a workshop on Nambour on the sunshine coast that makes andra/cams cages from $700. Only about an hour and a half drive best from brissy.. I'll try find more info for you.