Jump to content
SAU Community

Limit Of 2 X 044's On E85

Piggaz

By Piggaz,
in Engines & Forced Induction

 Share

Recommended Posts

Piggaz Grand Master

Piggaz

Posted
Posted

Hey guys. Steve (N1 GTR) and I were discussing this today while we were running the lines to my surge tank. I understand not many people will be able to answer this as it is a shitload of power but, does anyone know the limit of 2 X bosch 044's on E85?

We are both running very similar setups.... although I am a 2.8 and Steve is a 3.0 litre. Same cams and turbo's. Steve is currently making 455 RWKW at 24 psi.... My car will be on the dyno tomorrow and Friday shoving 2 bar down its throat and hopefully making 500 rwkw +..... if the pumps can flow that much. Will be interestng either way.

Link to comment
https://www.sau.com.au/forums/topic/344654-limit-of-2-x-044s-on-e85/
Share on other sites
  • Replies 113
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Posted Images

HYPED6 Collaborator

HYPED6

Posted
Posted
Hey guys. Steve (N1 GTR) and I were discussing this today while we were running the lines to my surge tank. I understand not many people will be able to answer this as it is a shitload of power but, does anyone know the limit of 2 X bosch 044's on E85?

We are both running very similar setups.... although I am a 2.8 and Steve is a 3.0 litre. Same cams and turbo's. Steve is currently making 455 RWKW at 24 psi.... My car will be on the dyno tomorrow and Friday shoving 2 bar down its throat and hopefully making 500 rwkw +..... if the pumps can flow that much. Will be interestng either way.

There are too many variables. One is Voltage. 044's do pump quite a bit more the better the voltage in a 12-15 volt system.

Another is how long you need to generate that power for. Sounds funny but think of it this way.

2 x 044's at 40 psi will flow around 7 Liters a min. Say your surge tank is 3 liters and your in tank pump can flow 3 liters a min at 0 psi.

Now say your 1600cc injectors are at 75% duty. So thats 1200cc per cylinder and 7.2 (7200cc) liters a min is being consumed.

Now, Hold your engine flat for 10 seconds or an average power run.

So your engine will consume 1.2 Liters from your surge tank. Would have returned nothing from the fuel system but your in tank has supplied 500cc of fuel.

Now hold your engine flat for 40 seconds.

You will consume 4.8 liters of fuel. Again nothing is being returned from your rail. Your in tank pump has supplied 2 liters soo all up you have had 5 liters if fuel available and only used 4.8........

Now hold it flat for a minute.

HYPED6 Collaborator

HYPED6

Posted
Posted

A real world example.

I ran these numbers on an engine we where doing development on. 2.5 6 cylinder.

Had 2 x 044 and a 3 liter surge tank. Wasn't even making 600rwhp through an auto and we where running 30% Meth and 70% 98.

The engine was tuned to perfection on the dyno. Even as far as Indervidual cylinder EGT's so we knew where weren't going to melt anything.

Now I wish I had have run the numbers earlier because the thing made it 380 meters of a 400 meter drag run and melted 2 pistons.

We now have a 20 liter surge tank and 3 x 044's

Piggaz Grand Master

Piggaz

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Yeah fair call.

Both surges are are about 5 litres. Nismo pump feeding both i think (well mine atleast). Now thats not exacatly under pressure like it in feeding the engine... so in theory it should be able to flow more. Injectors are ID 2000's but really i shouldnt be any higher then 60% duty (but hey i could be proved wrong)

So 60% of 2000 is 1.2 x 6 = 7.2 litres a minute.

Steve and I sorta had a play around with figures today. We came up with 518 RWKW. Obviously that is VERY rough but I think both of us are going to be touch and go with 2 pumps. Stupid E85 and its mega thirst!

Piggaz Grand Master

Piggaz

Posted
  • Author
Posted
A real world example.

I ran these numbers on an engine we where doing development on. 2.5 6 cylinder.

Had 2 x 044 and a 3 liter surge tank. Wasn't even making 600rwhp through an auto and we where running 30% Meth and 70% 98.

The engine was tuned to perfection on the dyno. Even as far as Indervidual cylinder EGT's so we knew where weren't going to melt anything.

Now I wish I had have run the numbers earlier because the thing made it 380 meters of a 400 meter drag run and melted 2 pistons.

We now have a 20 liter surge tank and 3 x 044's

That is not good news! I got no room for a 3rd pump dammit!

N1GTR Grand Master

N1GTR

Posted
Posted

Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

HYPED6 Collaborator

HYPED6

Posted
Posted
Yeah fair call.

Both surges are are about 5 litres. Nismo pump feeding both i think (well mine atleast). Now thats not exacatly under pressure like it in feeding the engine... so in theory it should be able to flow more. Injectors are ID 2000's but really i shouldnt be any higher then 60% duty (but hey i could be proved wrong)

So 60% of 2000 is 1.2 x 6 = 7.2 litres a minute.

Steve and I sorta had a play around with figures today. We came up with 518 RWKW. Obviously that is VERY rough but I think both of us are going to be touch and go with 2 pumps. Stupid E85 and its mega thirst!

I have found E85 Not that bad. Yes you use a lot, but EGT's are much lower and really to get the most out of it you need to be measuring them.

Think 3025 35r, 24 psi on 98 Lambda of 0.78 EGT's nudging 800c Around 490rwhp

Same engine 24psi E85 0.8 Lambda EGT's 700c 520 rwhp

Then we lean it out, 0.85, 0.9, 0.95 where we ended up. EGT's 770c Measured at the Hottest cylinder 560rwhp

Going from 0.78 to 0.95 made the fuel usage not to bad. But defiantly need EGT's to get the best out of it.

HYPED6 Collaborator

HYPED6

Posted
Posted
Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

Just drop your return line off your reg and run into a measuring container. Start your engine and wait 15 sec.

Thats the best way to measure how much flow you have at system voltage.

But you also have to remember, as pressuer increases flow decreases. So as your 1:1 reg starts working your fuel pump flow will decrease.

Piggaz Grand Master

Piggaz

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Hyped6 we both have id2000's, twin 044's have their own lines direct to the fuel rail (no stupid y pieces here), Paul has a NISMO lift pump but I've got another 044 intank

We didn't check voltage today, we had no time. I'd like to know what voltage mine runs at now!

We will chuck a multimetre at the pumps tomorrow before we leave mine. Being directly off the battery it should be whatever that is!

N1GTR Grand Master

N1GTR

Posted
Posted
Just drop your return line off your reg and run into a measuring container. Start your engine and wait 15 sec.

Thats the best way to measure how much flow you have at system voltage.

But you also have to remember, as pressuer increases flow decreases. So as your 1:1 reg starts working your fuel pump flow will decrease.

Will do when it's back at the tuners ;)

I'm not sure if the lift pump is setup properly through the ecu (autronic sm4), but say the lift pump 044 is turned up to max flow under WOT, what sort of flow is that going to see into the surge tank?

Neither of us are hard into drag racing, but I see your point about the size of the surge tank. If either of us held it flat for 1minute we would be in jail. On a circuit day the longest WOT is eastern creek straight, at the drags (we will both get booted after one run) but that will be over much quicker than the ec straight. Which makes me think of time to fill the tank back up for example we go WOT down a straight for 30 seconds, then brakes, then back on throttle. What sort of flow will the surge tank take during the braking time (I know this isn't easy at all)

N1GTR Grand Master

N1GTR

Posted
Posted
We will chuck a multimetre at the pumps tomorrow before we leave mine. Being directly off the battery it should be whatever that is!

Doh, forgot what equipment you have there from work

Might have to borrow it for mine next week

Piggaz Grand Master

Piggaz

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I'm good at sitting and watching, as you saw today :down:

Plug it in and I'll watch it

LOL. No comment. ;)

Doh, forgot what equipment you have there from work

Might have to borrow it for mine next week

Yeah mate. Take it anytime you want. Its mine so yeah whatever.

The Nismo intank pump flows 4.6L/min at 3.0kg/cm2.. BUT it wont be at 3bar (close enough) so it shuld flow more. It would be nice to have 2 pumps lifting to the surge but really I think thats overkill. Might be a question for Rob from RIPS? He would know. That bloke is a nutter!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Similar Content

  • Latest Posts

    • f00stx
      Quieter performance exhausts (or muffler add-on options)

      By f00stx · Posted

      So, I've had my V36 for about a month now and have already copped an "excessive exhaust noise" notification from QLD TMR, reported by someone in my local area. It's a twin as per the original, and can have a bit of a throaty note to it when idling cold 😄 and if I do get up it a bit, it can be noisy, but it did pass a roadworthy inspection before sale, so.... ... but in the interest of being a good neighbour, I do want to quieten it down a bit. Is anyone here running a quiet aftermarket cat-back on their V36 or 370Z? And the big, bold question: does an aftermarket cat-back really make much of a performance difference on these cars?
    • GTSBoy
      New kid on the block

      By GTSBoy · Posted

      The wiring diagram for the R33 RB25 is freely available, and is essentially the same same as most other RBs (just with differences as to which pin # does which job). To get the ECU to power up, you just need to provide power to the ECCS relay, and have the other power feeds that come in from the top left of the wiring diagram (wrt the ECU) that give perma power to the fuel pump relay, the ECU itself, etc etc, all connected. When you put power on all these it will just come to life. It's pretty clear from the diagram what needs to happen. Just follow the lines from the 12V + supply stuff in the top left over towards the ECU. I've even posted snips of such diagrams (not for vanilla 25, I think for Neo and 26) to various threads here in the last few months, talking about what it takes to get the fuel pump and FPCM up and going. Search these up and they will help get you started on doing the same with the vanilla 25 diagram. Hell, for all I know, I've done the same with that one in years past and have forgotten.
    • Duncan
      New kid on the block

      By Duncan · Posted

      Yep...so unless someone posts up the answer you will need to probe from the ECU connector to the dash plug with a multi meter in continuity mode to trace the wires.  Note the ECU has multiple - and + (and across different key settings - Battery, IGN and Start) and most likely the power is fed from the connector(s) that is normally near the left hand headlight.
    • Songo
      New kid on the block

      By Songo · Posted

      Thanks Duncan, I am actually just trying to get the Rb turning and running with the RB25DET S2 original loom itself  I am just trying to get it going outside the body and not thinking about the S15 or trying to match anything to the S15 loom at all I am only trying to see if anyone has done this and what pin they found to be the ignition trigger and ECU+/- on the dash connector, that's about it. Thanks  
    • iain_ST44GA
      M35 VQ25DET starter motor

      By iain_ST44GA · Posted

      Hi Guys, Does anyone know any aftermarket part numbers for a starter motor to suit the VQ25DET? I can find lots of alternative part number for the VQ35DE, which I assume would fit, but there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Thanks..
×
×
  • Create New...