Which Has More Potential In The Long Run?

[iplen]

Does anyone remember the super tourers of the mid 90s- early 00s? The weight penalties were something like FWD 0kg, RWD 50kg, 4WD 150kg... The group A GTRs had a massive weight penalty over the Sierras to start with but by the end of racing were carrying a heap more weight and boost restrictions that were not applied to the Sierras, anyone remember how that went? I am not going to get into science and big noting myself, because it is very simple, 4WD gives better grip, allowing you to use more HP, sooner. The rallying is very relevant simply because it highlights the difference by reducing the grip. I cannot think of a race series that allows 4WD where it is not unbeatable (no, I do not care about drag racing)

[mad082]

the long and the short of it is that no matter which side you are on, group A is an extremely poor example to use. the rules and regulations were pretty ordinary, and manufacturers could build a car that was right on th elimit, make enough road going models to get it allowed to race and that was it, meanwhile other car companies were simply beefing up existing models to make them a little bit better.

i would've like to had seem how the AWD turbo falcon that ford was working on (but ended up scrapping) would've gone against the GTR.

oh and i remember the super tourers that were all 4 cylinders (basically what the BTCC is). because of parity regulations neither fwd, rwd or awd dominated, however in the wet the audi's did very well, being awd.

[iplen]

That was why I mentioned the Supertourers/BTCC, very tightly regulated and controlled, they wrote rules to hobble the 4WDs, then outlawed them. So in summary, OP, was it Tyres?, asked for opinions, my OPINION, Build a 4WD, which means if you want to restrict it to a Skyline GTR, but an Evo will make a better cheaper track car... Puts on Wizard hat and robe... Realises flame suit will do shit all on this one...

[BoyWhoCriedWolf]

I had a run against my mate in his GTS-T and my GTR. His car had more rwkw than mine yet at the track the GTR would walk away from in the corners. If you add more power to the GTST the situation will only get worse, not better. Ive owned and driven everything turbo in the R32 guise and the GTR is at the top of tree im afraid.

[TurboDoseBro]

Did I just get owned in my own thread? I think I did . Thanks guys, gonna sell my Skyline and get a cheap 'run around' til i'm in the opens. Not much I can argue, I can already see oversteer is possible from the videos NISMO has posted, with limited grip levels even as an AWD from high power.

Marc: Last time I checked the rules of Group A racing (just then), there was no rule on the compound of tyre you can run so I'm assuming that it was a modern day spec Group A GTR. Why did Ford scrap the AWD turbo Falcon? They released the XR6T anyways so I don't see why they wouldn't just release it as an AWD, surely it wouldn't cost that much more to develop unless a certain drivetrain works better for some cars?

djr81: Not saying I don't believe you or anything but you're saying that the more static load a tyre has, the less grip it will have? It would at least make sense if the tyre's coefficient of grip decreased with decreased load because of the area of tyre patch. Is there an explanation? If given a weight heavy enough, would the coeffecient of friction become 0? (LOL logic) Or would it just asymptote? For your information I have read Carroll Smith's Drive To Win and am a big fan of his books. In regards to the GTSR comment, the G35/V35 is actually pretty much just as fast as a R32 GTR (Reference

skip to 3:45 onwards), it's FR and it weighs more. Hows that work if AWD was so superior and modern?

Iplen: Yeah it's true, Evos dominate the top places in TA because their AWD system is actually sophisticated with all the yaw controls etc, probably as developed as the R34 GTR system. Spoke to a few Evo owners and they said it was cheaper, and more reliable to track the Evo instead of a GTR.

RBNT: But the GTS-T had you in terms of acceleration right? More wheels to spin = more drivetrain loss. What aero and tyres was he running compared to you? Who had a better lap time? (No I don't wanna hear excuses if you lost lol)

Edited May 14, 2011 by TyresBro

[BoyWhoCriedWolf]

Down the straight it was neck a neck. The 26 has a much bigger spread of power through the rev range. The GTR would have had a better lap time Im sure.

[BoyWhoCriedWolf]

....and yes, you got owned in your own thread

gud werk

[mad082]

Did I just get owned in my own thread? I think I did . Thanks guys, gonna sell my Skyline and get a cheap 'run around' til i'm in the opens. Not much I can argue, I can already see oversteer is possible from the videos NISMO has posted, with limited grip levels even as an AWD from high power.

Marc: Last time I checked the rules of Group A racing (just then), there was no rule on the compound of tyre you can run so I'm assuming that it was a modern day spec Group A GTR. Why did Ford scrap the AWD turbo Falcon? They released the XR6T anyways so I don't see why they wouldn't just release it as an AWD, surely it wouldn't cost that much more to develop unless a certain drivetrain works better for some cars?

djr81: Not saying I don't believe you or anything but you're saying that the more static load a tyre has, the less grip it will have? It would at least make sense if the tyre's coefficient of grip decreased with decreased load because of the area of tyre patch. Is there an explanation? If given a weight heavy enough, would the coeffecient of friction become 0? (LOL logic) Or would it just asymptote? For your information I have read Carroll Smith's Drive To Win and am a big fan of his books. In regards to the GTSR comment, the G35/V35 is actually pretty much just as fast as a R32 GTR (Reference

skip to 3:45 onwards), it's FR and it weighs more. Hows that work if AWD was so superior and modern?

Iplen: Yeah it's true, Evos dominate the top places in TA because their AWD system is actually sophisticated with all the yaw controls etc, probably as developed as the R34 GTR system. Spoke to a few Evo owners and they said it was cheaper, and more reliable to track the Evo instead of a GTR.

RBNT: But the GTS-T had you in terms of acceleration right? More wheels to spin = more drivetrain loss. What aero and tyres was he running compared to you? Who had a better lap time? (No I don't wanna hear excuses if you lost lol)

the awd falcon was in developement back in the 80's (was going to be a 268kw AWD twin turbo XF).

[TurboDoseBro]

It actually came out in the form of the RS200. Which is a lot better in terms of performance.

[zebra]

Err I think you might have mixed signals about the differnce between an RS200 and a XF falcon

RS200 - Mid mounted 1.8L Cosworth 4 potter

XF Falcon

[TurboDoseBro]

No, I'm saying they probably scrapped the AWD XF and invested the rest of the money into the creation of the RS200... (yes it did have a turbo as well as AWD)

[zebra]

Rs200 was rwd

and done by Ford UK...falcon was an Australian thing completely seperate to Ford UK

[mad082]

No, I'm saying they probably scrapped the AWD XF and invested the rest of the money into the creation of the RS200... (yes it did have a turbo as well as AWD)

you do realise that the rs200 finished production around the same time that they started the AWD XF designing. it was more likely scrapped because of new emissions laws, and the fact that the XF model was scrapped for the EA.

[mad082]

Rs200 was rwd

and done by Ford UK...falcon was an Australian thing completely seperate to Ford UK

rs200 was actually AWD

[BoyWhoCriedWolf]

The RS was scrapped due to the rule changes in Group B.

[iplen]

rs200 was actually AWD

Marc and I don't agree to often, but yeah, RS2000 was RWD, RS 200 was not, mid engined 1.8 turbo, with 4WD, twin shocks and there was some sort of tricky gearbox too, dual range or something from memory. The Evolution was going to be 2l. Was released for the RAC Lombard at the end of 85, part way through 86 it was announced that group B was to be finished as well as Group S which was due to replace it, following the death of Henri Toivenen and Sergio Cresto as well as an RS200 crew after they ploughed into spectators. When Ford/cosworth were developing this thing they could not have cared less what a little tuning company in Aus was doing..

[TurboDoseBro]

....and yes, you got owned in your own thread

gud werk

No I didn't get owned actually. In the end, you guys ran outta arguments or couldn't answer your own statements

This brng out the other question in the events of owning a GTR, would you install an AWD torque split controller? And if yes, what would you set it to on the track? Be honest. If no, why?

Edited May 16, 2011 by TyresBro

[BoyWhoCriedWolf]

Did I just get owned in my own thread? I think I did .

I was only agreeing with you.

My knowledge is from experience, not google.

[djr81]

No I didn't get owned actually. In the end, you guys ran outta arguments or couldn't answer your own statements

This brng out the other question in the events of owning a GTR, would you install an AWD torque split controller? And if yes, what would you set it to on the track? Be honest. If no, why?

Yes you would install a torque split controller (On a 32 in my experience). You then set it up to transfer as much torque forward as possible (based on the assumption it is of the type that interferes with the lateral accelerometer input to the ATTESSA system).

The GTR's were set up to drive nicely on the road. How you set the up for the track is a whole different story.

[TurboDoseBro]

Yes you would install a torque split controller (On a 32 in my experience). You then set it up to transfer as much torque forward as possible (based on the assumption it is of the type that interferes with the lateral accelerometer input to the ATTESSA system).

The GTR's were set up to drive nicely on the road. How you set the up for the track is a whole different story.

djr81 Are you messing with us? Not saying it's incorrect (or correct), first you say that the less load on a tyre the higher coefficient of grip but now you say with a torque split controller to put as much power to the front wheels as possible. So in a way, on top of the already understeering and front heavy R32 GTR, you give it more understeer?

I was only agreeing with you.

My knowledge is from experience, not google.

Well I take it back