Does Using The Wrong Tie End Rods Affect True Rolling Motion? Need Some Experts To Chime In.

[sadr33]

I'm not sure if you guys are all familiar with the ackerman principle, but bassicaly on all passsenger cars when you turn the wheels left, the left wheel turns more than the right, and vice versa.

Bassically giving you a "toe out" setup around corners to maintain true rolling motion

Heres a good video clearly explaining this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVx_bgI7Ojw&feature=related

Would putting in wrong lenths tie ends alter this in an way?

Trying to imagine this in my head, using wrong tie end lenths would alter the ammount of toe in toe out setting, but should not affect the ackerman principle?

These are the ones I got http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/230854661059?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

For a 1993 gtst

When the mechanic put the new ones in he counted the same number of turns as the old one and the car came of the hoist with massive toe in. about 5cm on each side.

Now 2 wheel alligments later the car feels sloppy when driving straight and wanders on the roads. I know the road geomertry affects all this but it was defintely not like this before messing with the suspension. In fact it was beatifull and confidence inspiring.

Now, For example when braking and accelrating, its just pulling and pushing the wheel in weird ways. the car generally doesnt feel as compotent. Its gone from solid on straights and corners to sloppy and unpredictable in the same roads, same conditions.

I asked for 0 0 toe and i ONLY had the front 2 wheels adjusted or touched.

After the Ffrst alligment, steering wheel was off to the left, second time and whats its on now its off to the right. But even if I were to centre the wheel it still feel sloppy and wonders.

I just wish I left the car alone as the old tie end rods were ok to me,. the only reason I changed them is mechanic said boot is busted.

[WMDC35]

if the tie rods were adjusted to same toe settings then the rack would be the same length so shouldn't change anything, what was the report from the alignment?, otherwise hey you say they're the wrong ones & the car feels crap, put the right ones on?

[zoomzoom]

Ive used those ones and I havent had problems. Did you have 2 alignments done by the same workshop? They should have straightened the steering wheel to centre either time. Doesnt inspire confidence in their accuracy.

[sadr33]

yes both at the same shop. it is a mechanical machine so no before after printout.

it's possible the bushes are worn so they don't keep settings but frustrating that after new tie end rods and alignment car drives much worse than before.

maybe i should try some toe in to see if it feels like before.

im just going to try do my own adjustment

[zoomzoom]

Do you have original caster rods with the old fluid filled bushes?

[Risking]

Your getting all flustered about things that aren't effected by the components you've changed

Ackerman is not effected by tie rod length, if the toe is the same as before the pivot points haven't moved.

Why did you ask for 0 toe?

If its a road going car toe it in a total of 1-2mm depending on your preference.

Get a decent alignment on a proper machine, problem will go away

[lammy426]

there one of the best quality rod ends about,the mechanic should have measured before removing the old ones and not number of turns because the length may vary slightly,and then tracked it up and as above ackerman is not effected and you need toe in

[r31slpr]

Its only rod ends they're simple as, no need to measure anything when changing them. Just mark with chalk roughly where they are so its near enough for the new ones and then get an alignment.

Get a front and rear alignment to make sure the car is tracking straight, it may be causing your problems

[AngryRB]

i recently replaced the tie rod ends myself, got them from kudos, i made the mistake of just counting the turns and bolted it all together,

went for a drive and it was very wierd in the steering, so i checked and the new tie rod ends are a bit longer, and the wheels werent pointing straight at all , so ive adjusted it so the wheels are pointing straight and its driving straight

but i know what you mean, it feels a bit odd now so i guess ill need someone to set the toe in and check it is right.

what state are you in? says on that add there for a gt34

Edited November 1, 2012 by SliverS2

[sadr33]

Ok some developments on the issue. First I'll reply to some posts.

Ive used those ones and I havent had problems. Did you have 2 alignments done by the same workshop? They should have straightened the steering wheel to centre either time. Doesnt inspire confidence in their accuracy.

I think the guy doing the first 2 alignments just parks the car with the wheels straight and hopes the wheel doesn't move during adjustment. This was a reputable recommended place and the guy has 30 years experience I was told.

Do you have original caster rods with the old fluid filled bushes?

I have the original caster rods, but I've had white line Poly bushes put in a few weeks ago. Big improvement to stability after that. While the mechanic was doing the bushes he said my tie rod boots were worn so I decided to change them too which resulted in the problems of this thread. I should have stopped after caster bushes car was driving great. The new tie rods brought me nothing but pain and lost money, and probably damage to hubs etc,

Your getting all flustered about things that aren't effected by the components you've changed

Ackerman is not effected by tie rod length, if the toe is the same as before the pivot points haven't moved.

Why did you ask for 0 toe?

If its a road going car toe it in a total of 1-2mm depending on your preference.

Get a decent alignment on a proper machine, problem will go away

Yup, I figured as much but wasn't 100%. The reason I asked about ackerman is because the car felt so funny not just on straights but on corners as well. I now know why though its because the alignment was skewed, and in varying amounts on each wheel.

I asked for 0 0 toe because I haven't found a alignment place I have confidence in and I prefer a more neutral alignment setup. I figured with 0 0 the likelihood of getting too much out of whack is lower.

The three places in my life i have taken my car for a wheel alignment the car has always been worse of and protested driving effortlessly afterwards. The 4 wheel steering on a eunos 800 I had broke a day after getting it aligned at bob jane at their recommendation and my expense after 4 new tyre set fitting and the whole car was crabbing like crazy and steering wheel about 10 degrees off. Went back 3 times and they told me its an old car it cant keep alignment This was back in 2005 and it was a near mint highway driven car that drive like a tron bike before the alignment. After that it went to a tortoise with 3 legs and a tumor and I never resolved the issue because it would have cost $1000s.

there one of the best quality rod ends about,the mechanic should have measured before removing the old ones and not number of turns because the length may vary slightly,and then tracked it up and as above ackerman is not effected and you need toe in

Believe it or not I had a look around shops and ebay for the tie end rods and I decided on those by a long shot just by looking at the pictures. In the pics they looked top notch, looked like high grade steel, great casting, really good manufacture all round. I wasnt disappointed when they arrived. One thing I did not do is ask the mechanic to compare sizes with the old ones though. Dohh....

i recently replaced the tie rod ends myself, got them from kudos, i made the mistake of just counting the turns and bolted it all together,

went for a drive and it was very wierd in the steering, so i checked and the new tie rod ends are a bit longer, and the wheels werent pointing straight at all , so ive adjusted it so the wheels are pointing straight and its driving straight

but i know what you mean, it feels a bit odd now so i guess ill need someone to set the toe in and check it is right.

what state are you in? says on that add there for a gt34

I'm in nsw. Shame if you were in syd would've loved to have a look at how ur wheels are sitting.

Take a few pics from above the wheel guards like i have.

Anyway above is the alignment after the alignment shop. Whats that like a few mm of toe out on the front left wheel and a lot of toe in on the front right? What kind of alignment is that if a customer asks for 0 0.

I realise this is far from ideal way to check alignment but I'm sure the panels do not vary that much from one side to another. Car hasn't been in a accident and panels look very straight.

So using this crude method to check alignment my uncle got under the car while I told him which direction to turn the tie rods. On the first go the alignment is now 90% back to how it was, the car doesnt feel like a truck without power steering or summersaults in a random direction mid corner. And this is just trying to get the tyres straight by eye!

I still prefer to go somewhere but only to a place that has electronic machine and they show you the readouts, recommend settings and ask you what you want instead of just asking for the keys.

Edited November 4, 2012 by sadr33

[r31slpr]

Even if the panels are straight, you cant pick an alignment by pictures, it needs to be measured.

I still prefer to go somewhere but only to a place that has electronic machine and they show you the readouts, recommend settings and ask you what you want instead of just asking for the keys.

Do this, but you'll have to tell them what you want, so they don't just set it at their preferred settings.

[AngryRB]

I think you need to go to a specialist in race car prep , i know a guy in brissy who does it and last time the car was 100% better, i wouldnt be confident in the local pedders or whoever to do a good job.. even just by eye mine is driving straight and feels reasonable, just doesnt feel as sharp and settled like before.. Edited November 5, 2012 by SliverS2