Sway Bars (yes again, I searched)

[Restless 33]

thankx mate big help

[Ionos]

ionos.... ive had heavier swaybars fitted to all my cars, havent got any for the 33 yet though. but on my honda, r31 skyline, and my 00' subaru liberty, and didnt notice any change in driving in a straight line, also made cornering much more stable and comfortable, body was all over the shop and carrying on.

what makes you say that ride quality is affected??? with swaybars, there is no downside.

Perhaps i should have clarified. In all cases , there will be a change of ride quality because the suspension independence is lowered. IE, if you left rear wheel goes over a bump, your right wheel will be affected moreso with a heavier swaybar.

However in many cases, it may be so minimal that it is not noticeable. That said, when I fitted a heavier swaybar I did notice a difference in ride quality, but the handling was significantly better with the heavier bar.

[damuscat]

restless33, i think the adjustable bar from whiteline for the r33 is 'BNF24X'.

I got the 'BNF24' which isnt adjustable for like $175.  

Should get some whiteline pineapples as well (KCA349).

justin911.. are you sure about those part numbers? I'm looking at the pdf I got from whiteline maybe a couple of months back and the adjustable sway bars are the following:

Front: Blade adjustable 24mm (BNF24Z)

Rear: Blade adjustable 22mm (BNR11Z)

For the part numbers you quoted:

BNF24: Heavy duty fixed swaybar, 24mm (Front)

BNF24X: Heavy duty fixed swaybar, 27mm (Front)

I just called autobarn too as they're one of the distributors for Whiteline. They quoted me $229ea for the front and rear adjustable swaybars.

[amosite]

Swaybars do effect "ride quality" to a certain point.

Here is the "But" (and its a big but)

On a corner that is "chopped up" you will notice a slightly increased amount of

ride comfort changes.

This is really THE only time and combined with a stiffer spring rate at the wheel

and the urethane bushes adds a only a small amount of change to comfort. However the car will (in 90% of cases) allow you to corner faster on that particular corner.

Obviously on a smooth corner- you will not notice it.

Very similar to a smooth road with very stiff springs- you wont notice it.

Best of luck finding one in Oz.

The debate about "not needing swaybars with coilovers" is very heated.

I have been lucky enough to drive a car with coil overs with bars on and bars off (stock bars fitted) on and off the track (ARC swaybars)

Basically, it was slower over the whole entire track. I didn't time it as the entry, mid corner and exit speeds were all slower. Slow entry, slower mid corner which lead to slower exit speeds.

There was also a big difference in driver confidence.

No matter how smooth or aggressive you entered the corner, mid corner speed was at least 10-20% less. The faster the corner the bigger the difference. Another note worth mentioning is that some corners would "lock" the front inner wheel under brakes. This is due to being better balanced under hard braking.

This was done on RE01 (JDM) Tyres, which are considered a good road tyre and comparable to ST115's etc. In the case of a semi slick or full slick, suspension loads would be even higher and the deficit even bigger!

The only time I would personally consider stock swaybars with coilovers is on a rally car.

Stiffer bars restrict independent wheel travel and in rally (in Oz anyway) this can be very bad.

If you need hooking up on Adj bars from whiteline, I should be able to do most cars for around the $200 mark ea. just Pm me with details of the car.

[dangerous_daveo]

......

I have been lucky enough to drive a car with coil overs with bars on and bars off (stock bars fitted) on and off the track (ARC swaybars)

Basically, it was slower over the whole entire track. I didn't time it as the entry, mid corner and exit speeds were all slower. Slow entry, slower mid corner which lead to slower exit speeds.

There was also a big difference in driver confidence.  

No matter how smooth or aggressive you entered the corner, mid corner speed was at least 10-20% less. The faster the corner the bigger the difference. Another note worth mentioning is that some corners would "lock" the front inner wheel under brakes. This is  due to being better balanced under hard braking.

This was done on RE01 (JDM) Tyres, which are considered a good road tyre and comparable to ST115's etc. In the case of a semi slick or full slick, suspension loads would be even higher and the deficit even bigger!

The only  time I would personally consider stock swaybars with coilovers is on a rally car.

Stiffer bars restrict independent wheel travel and in rally (in Oz anyway) this can be very bad.

If you need hooking up on Adj bars from whiteline, I should be able to do most cars for around the $200 mark ea. just Pm me with details of the car.

Sorry, Id just like to check something here... You mean with the bars OFF the car wasnt as good I take it? Just the way Im reading it its not overly clear if they were on the car or not at the time. Sorry for asking, but $500-600 for the bars fitted, with a proper wheel alinement including some major camber etc changes, I need to make sure Im making the right decision. The money could be spent elsewhere quite easily.

Also while I think about it, are there any other brands other than whiteline that are worth considering? Both price and quality wise.

[justin911]

I dunno, the ones i got were BNF24 It works well.

I got them from autobarn in doncaster, melbourne for $175. got em like 5 months ago.

[amosite]

Sorry, Id just like to check something here...  You mean with the bars OFF the car wasnt as good I take it?  Just the way Im reading it its not overly clear if they were on the car or not at the time.  Sorry for asking, but $500-600 for the bars fitted, with a proper wheel alinement including some major camber etc changes, I need to make sure Im making the right decision.  The money could be spent elsewhere quite easily.

Also while I think about it, are there any other brands other than whiteline that are worth considering?  Both price and quality wise.

Yes, when the bars were changed to stock the car was no where near as good!

The only other bar I would consider is the ARC adjustable. They are a very nice piece with Spherical bearings, hollow chrome molly construction and are one of the best engineered bars available. However this comes and a substancial cost at around $500 each bar! (depending on model)

I dunno, the ones i got were BNF24 It works well.  

I got them from autobarn in doncaster, melbourne for $175.  got em like 5 months ago.

The non adjustable bars are a lot cheaper!

They are still very good, but for the small extra, the adjustable ones are defitily worth it!

[dangerous_daveo]

Well, I went down to the suspension shop today. Veryyyy interesting. He said not to waste my money on a front sway bar. Just to get the BIGGEST rear adj bar I can get my hands on.

But he also said, stock castor, more camber on the front. Less camber on the rear. Softer front springs, etc etc.

The thing he said mostly is I have to work around my 2 way diff. Makes sence to me, spent a lot of time explaining how stuff works etc.

With the castor hes saying lots is good ONLY and he did stress ONLY if the rest of the suspension geomitry, so it all still works in harmony. Which, in my case it isnt.

Sooo, start spending money, have a play around. If it works it works, if not back to the drawing board. Hey its only money

[amosite]

Yes, if you only give half the story, you only get half the answer.

A rear bar without front will induce oversteer.

If you have 1.5deg camber on the front, its time to play with castor.

[scathing]

The only other bar I would consider is the ARC adjustable. They are a very nice piece with Spherical bearings, hollow chrome molly construction

Hollow bars aren't as strong as solid ones. Unless these bars are a physically a lot stronger or larger, they'll be less effective than a solid bar. Ignoring the weight benefits and talking purely about strength, is the ARC bar more rigid than a solid steel one of the same size, or a larger diameter?

Since most OEM bars are hollow, the fact that upgrading to a chrome moly hollow bar from what shipped with the car will still provide improvement is not in dispute.

[JAGR33]

Yes, when the bars were changed to stock the car was no where near as good!

The only other bar I would consider is the ARC adjustable. They are a very nice piece with Spherical bearings, hollow chrome molly construction and are one of the best engineered bars available. However this comes and a substancial cost at around $500 each bar! (depending on model)  

The non adjustable bars are a lot cheaper!

They are still very good, but for the small extra, the adjustable ones are defitily worth it!

How about the cusco ones??? They any good??

[maverick]

I have 2 front struts and one rear for sale for R32 skylines. Each piece going at $100 each.

add 10$ for postage. PM me or ring 0403911699 for details or to arrange an order.

[Sydneykid]

Well, I went down to the suspension shop today.  Veryyyy interesting.  He said not to waste my money on a front sway bar.  Just to get the BIGGEST rear adj bar I can get my hands on.

But he also said, stock castor, more camber on the front.  Less camber on the rear.  Softer front springs, etc etc.

The thing he said mostly is I have to work around my 2 way diff.  Makes sence to me, spent a lot of time explaining how stuff works etc.

With the castor hes saying lots is good ONLY and he did stress ONLY if the rest of the suspension geomitry, so it all still works in harmony.  Which, in my case it isnt.

Sooo, start spending money, have a play around.  If it works it works, if not back to the drawing board.  Hey its only money

Time to go to a new suspension shop, that one is out of date. More caster on the front is ESSENTIAL regardless of what is done to the rest of the suspension. More camber on the front (instead of more caster) is simply illogical, it means less tyre contact patch under braking. Caster is simply camber on demand, when you turn the steering wheel you get negative camber on the outside wheel and positive camber on the insdide, wheel which is EXACTLY what you want as is maintains the tyre contact patch (of both front tyres) when the chassis rolls. It rolls because it is going around a corner, after all that's why you turned the steering wheel in the first place.

As for front stabiliser bar upgrade, absolutely the rear needs the biggest upgrade, 19mm up to 24mm is not unusual. But the front does need an upgrade too, just not quite as much, 24mm hollow to 27mm solid is the most common.

[dangerous_daveo]

Time to go to a new suspension shop, that one is out of date.  More caster on the front is ESSENTIAL regardless of what is done to the rest of the suspension.  More camber on the front (instead of more caster) is simply illogical, it means less tyre contact patch under braking.  Caster is simply camber on demand, when you turn the steering wheel you get negative camber on the outside wheel and positive camber on the insdide, wheel which is EXACTLY what you want as is maintains the tyre contact patch (of both front tyres) when the chassis rolls.  It rolls because it is going around a corner, after all that's why you turned the steering wheel in the first place.

....

Not knocking what your saying by anymeans. Just after the explanation. What he is saying (and did make sence, and the car does do) is that the castor will be creating bumpsteer, mostly as you have changed the angle of one item, you change the angle of the others, and they would need to be modified to suit.

Either way, I'll pull the castor back, if it works it works, if it doesnt it just goes back next wheel alinment. But I have to say I dont think its doing what it should be atm, and from the questions I have asked before I have done pretty much everything yourself and others have suggested. So time to start trying other things, doesnt work, put it back, not that hard. Could be just my driving style also, and how I like the car set up.

[predator]

Side question.. when you buy a front stabaliser bar, do you get all the required mounting bushes? That is the U shaped mount ones, and the ones on the end?

[Duncan]

Side question.. when you buy a front stabaliser bar, do you get all the required mounting bushes? That is the U shaped mount ones, and the ones on the end?

side answer....the whiteline kit includes the u bushes but not the 8 little ones that mount to the control arm

[Roy]

But I have to say I dont think its doing what it should be atm, and from the questions I have asked before I have done pretty much everything yourself and others have suggested.  So time to start trying other things, doesnt work, put it back, not that hard.  Could be just my driving style also, and how I like the car set up.

What isnt the car doing???? Can you explain where you think the short comings are, and what your looking to improve

[amosite]

Hollow bars aren't as strong as solid ones. Unless these bars are a physically a lot stronger or larger, they'll be less effective than a solid bar. Ignoring the weight benefits and talking purely about strength, is the ARC bar more rigid than a solid steel one of the same size, or a larger diameter?

Since most OEM bars are hollow, the fact that upgrading to a chrome moly hollow bar from what shipped with the car will still provide improvement is not in dispute.

Yes, its common to find 32mm in the ARC range. Being made of chrome molly there is virtually no give in them so its best to run them in the softest setting depending on appication- but generally speaking if your in Oz.

Whiteline bars are made of Spring steel which works well being a suspension component.

Time to go to a new suspension shop, that one is out of date. More caster on the front is ESSENTIAL regardless of what is done to the rest of the suspension. More camber on the front (instead of more caster) is simply illogical, it means less tyre contact patch under braking. Caster is simply camber on demand, when you turn the steering wheel you get negative camber on the outside wheel and positive camber on the insdide, wheel which is EXACTLY what you want as is maintains the tyre contact patch (of both front tyres) when the chassis rolls. It rolls because it is going around a corner, after all that's why you turned the steering wheel in the first place.

As for front stabiliser bar upgrade, absolutely the rear needs the biggest upgrade, 19mm up to 24mm is not unusual. But the front does need an upgrade too, just not quite as much, 24mm hollow to 27mm solid is the most common.

Correct! The only time you can run too much castor is on a double whishbone set up and even then it is still pretty high figures.

Castor increases dynamic camber- meaning less static camber is needed.

Wen upgrading bars, is is a good idea to keep it "balanced". I.e If you run the front, run a rear bar too. Rear bar only will induce oversteer, front bar only will induce a slight amount of under. Hence the reason why its best to get front and rear that are adjustable, then you can tune the settings to suit your driving style or application.

The only time I would run "just a rear bar" is on a WRX where they have silly amounts of understeer from factory, having a 24mm Rear bar (stock is 19) and setting it on the hardest setting will reduce a lot of it!

In the case of running a "rear bar only with Mechanical LSD" on a ceffie- well this would be a good drift set up! Thats about it

What isnt the car doing???? Can you explain where you think the short comings are, and what your looking to improve

Good question!

In addition, you may as well list Suspension mods, drive train (like LSD), chassis braces and wheel alignment figures.

[Sydneykid]

What he is saying (and did make sence, and the car does do) is that the castor will be creating bumpsteer, mostly as you have changed the angle of one item, you change the angle of the others, and they would need to be modified to suit.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. You pull the lower control arm forward with the radius rod to achieve increased caster. This also pulls the steering arm forward and maintains its parrallel orientation with the lower control arm. There is no additional bump steer introduced by this action. The most common cause of bump steer in a production car is excessive lowering, where the steering arm does not maintain its parrallel orientation with the lower control arm.

Noting that on double wisbone suspension you can achieve additional caster by pulling the upper control arm rearwards. Similarly on strut based suspension you can move the top strut mount rearwards to increase caster. Neither of these has any effect on bump steer.

So I am at a toal loss to understand why anyone would say something that is so obviously wrong. Time for a new suspension shop.

[dangerous_daveo]

Ok, put bluntly. The car has been raised quick substantially (sp?) it has about 2* camber on the front, and I think its down to 1.7* or so on the rear. Its got rebuilt coilovers, and 200lb springs rear, 350 lb springs on the front, and the valve rates have been set up to suit. It would turn out it also has aluminium 'pineapples' already in there, and to be honist the car does hook up pretty well, there might be a bit more playing around there, but rear end traction wouldnt seem to be the problem. ATM its already running 6.5* castor. Its also been corner balanced when it was raised for the 2nd time. All suspension arms are now pointing the corect ways, they arent flat or pointing down towards the sump/diff. So there shouldnt be any problems with that. And as already mentioned the 2way diff.

And to be honist I have no idea what the standard size anti sway bar is, so it COULD have thicker ones in there already.

Im running brig G3 tyres, so they are of fairly resonable quality.

Now the problem Im having is it is STILL understeering what I would call badly. The outer edges of the front tyres only are still wearing noticably. So I would think there is a fairly big problem there somewhere. Also as far as I know most of the bushes have been replaced.

Factory ride hight is 150mm, and to be honist, it wouldnt be too far off that now, maybe 20mm lower.

So really, whats left? I cant see how sway bars could really make THAT much difference. Im more worried about tyre wear atm. Im not too keen on wasting $270ish a tyre from chewing the OUTside.