Anti - 4wd/suv Discussion

[KeeFy]

HehehahahahHAHAHAHEHEHEHE!!

whew... that's a good one.. Import cars are just as dangerous and do cause problems if used incorrectly - why do you think there was such a media stir in the past over them? A few people ruin it for others.. If not used correctly, they can cause some major harm as can a 4wd.

You guys have got your head in the sand.. 4wd's are only dangerous if they crash or if the person can't drive.. same as any vehicle.. if used correctly, they're fine..

REdgtst - a clean 4wd means the person doesn't use it offroad? Nice one.. we usually keep them clean on our minesites, but we also do some of the most arduous 4wding you'll hear of..

Kieth - I jolly well don't. You guys are seriously flawed applying arguments to others that somehow don't apply to yourselves or the group of cars you belong to..

Josh - the vision issue can be a problem for any car in any situation. It might happen more with 4wd's, but I hardly see it as a reason to ban them..

Dan - in a charade, isn't ANYTHING going to cause you vision issues? 

*cast*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, i don't know about you, i drive within the speed limits, have had a clean record for 4 yrs with driving everyday. What we are talking about is inconsideration to others. Performance drivers usually just kill themseleves. Back home, pple race on the street, and usually when there is an accident, it's something to do with them slammin into a tree or a wall, not into pple. Where else on the other hand, jeeps cause daily inconvenice to pple driving around just by average day to day driving. Performance ? Maybe the exhaust is too loud, but has that got anything to do with safety? Our cars are called whales, but our whales do not take up as much space as a 4WD.

Back to statistics, since a performance car is relatively low, higher chance of seeing a kid at the back of the car, agreed? Thus it's safer.

If you do normal comparison, a performance car if driven normally does not block other pple's vision and does not need to make a wider turn radius than a 4WD. (Well, can't be said for the EVO and WRX as they are 4WD and their turning radius sucks too). So, just by comparing normal driving, non spirited, with a very good driver in it. The 4WD already has 2 - points for inconsideration to others. Get the drift?

[DanR33]

camin do u hold up roofs for a living?

[DanR33]

4WD's are too big so lets argue imports are too fast. Its like just calling each other names.

Lets not rule out the fact any car can go 180km/hr these days. Also the fact that 4WD's like the twin turbo porsche is actually quicker 0-100 than a standard skyline (porsche does it in 5 seconds flat).

Also add to this that most 4WDs have big V8's in them that cause more polution and use more resources than any import.

Having a powerful car or a quick car is not the issue. If someone in a skyline smashes into my charade at 60km/h yer fair enough ill probably be stuffed. But if a 4WD hits me im dead for sure. Therefore 4WD's are dangerous. Now if the skyline hits me at 180 then yes i'd be dead but thats not the car, its the driver.

And further to the 4WD problem is the fact that so many of them have bullbars for no reason. Its not enough they have different impact zones. It just shows they'd rather kill someone than get a damaged front grill or headlight.

[Patto-]

FYI. I did 180km/hr in a Rav4. Thou it's not a full fleged 4WD, 4WDs are cabable of speed if you set ur mind to it. It just depends on the driver. Also a 4WD hitting a bump at those kinda speeds is just as, or even more disasterous.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Firstly I'll just say this was thrown in to balance the argument out. You say - "4wd drivers do this, and its much more dangerous because they are in a 4wd."

The guy in the r34 gtr went around 180 possibly 200 on a surburban road. A 50kph zone. From where he started I'm sure it would be impossible to get anywhere near this speed in almost any 4wd. (Obviously this excludes Porsche Cayenne turbo or BMW x5) That doesn't mean you can't get up to dangerous speeds in 4wds, its just a lot easier to do it in a sports car. This is the same argument as your tailgating etc in a 4wd.

Also, 4wds are made to handle bumps. Stiff lowered sports suspension is not. This is a huge bump. The guy hit the bump, got airborne, lost control and hit a power pole. I would almost guarantee he wouldn't have done this if he ws in a 4wd.

[Josh]

Cam - I was saying driver error aside, a 4wd is a more dangerous vehicle on the road than an import purely because of what it is, its shape, size etc - any vehicle can be dangerous if your a f**kwit about things...

[caminperth]

FYI. I did 180km/hr in a Rav4.

Sorry, i don't know about you, i drive within the speed limits

Really? Can't think of anywhere in the world it's safe, smart or legal to do that sort of speed in a Rav 4..

camin do u hold up roofs for a living?

Now now danny - don't start taking this personally and throw a tantrum..

The only serious reasons I can see that you guys have put forward are:

1. Visibility - Can happen with any car in any situations. Granted 4wd's can be harder to see out of or see past, but they aren't impossible. Just as bad as a commercial van or an import with dark tint. Stop being impatient - if you can't see past it, wait until it has pulled away.

2. Crash damage - true, a heavier car will possibly cause more damage in an impact, but this depends highly upon the impact angle, speed and a heap of other factors. Does this mean that any car over 1.5T should be banned from the road? Hardly.

3. Likelyhood of an accident - take a look at crash stats. The main group to die in auto accidents are males under 25 driving cars too fast or powerful for their experience. Why do insurance companies charge like they do?

4. All 4wd owners are sh*t drivers because they've annoyed me a few times - somehow this is a sweeping generalisation that can be applied to any type of car you like. Weak.

5. The Environment - I love this one. Somehow a larger engine with all the major pollution gear, revving at lower speeds kills the environment quicker than a high revving forced induction "track" car? Do the math on gas output alone - I don't think so...

Dan - I'm not getting into a name-calling contest, I'm merely applying your own arguments to the import scene. I drive one and love it. I'll probably get one for my next car and possibly the car after that. I just don't try to kid myself that I'm any better or have any more right to be on the road than anyone else...

Cmon guys - you can do better than this....

[stR33ter]

i believe the issue is the 4WD owners that drive like there in a HPI

they seem to be the ones that cause all prob's apart from the perents that allow there children to play unattended on the street or driveway

one of my family members ownes a patrol, but she doesn't go offroad

she has horses and that is the safest vehical to tow the float with.

now you may say a falcon or commo could but if the horses aver get spooked while in the float and start thrashin around that would cause all sorts of probs in a car that weighed less that the combined weight of the horses and float

imo

[DanR33]

Camin I am merely implying u r like talking to a brick wall. And for your information I am flexing my web muscles - I am the strongest man in the world and not just some computer geek i swear!

Imports are not in the same boat as 4WD's (unless they get packed that way in japan)

us are saying 4WD's are suited to outback use and not urban use then your main point is imports are as bad because they are fast. This is like me saying 4WDs are ok because water is wet or the sky is blue.

You can fix the fact that imports are fast by driving in the speed limits. How do you fix the fact that 4WDs are too big, have poor visibility and have dangerous impact zones. You can not fix this by driving within the speed limit.

As for doing 180 in a rav4 legally, there are roads in NT that have no limit. As for it being unsafe i say if ur on a desrted road with no houses close and ur in the car by urself then the worst u can do is kill urself so whats the harm?

[caminperth]

Camin I am merely implying u r like talking to a brick wall. And for your information I am flexing my web muscles - I am the strongest man in the world and not just some computer geek i swear!

I'm just hard to convince..

us are saying 4WD's are suited to outback use and not urban use then your main point is imports are as bad because they are fast. This is like me saying 4WDs are ok because water is wet or the sky is blue.

Nope. I'm applying the same argument back to our own cars. I have nothing against modified imports or 4wd's. Imports CAN be bad because they can be used incorrectly. 4wd's CAN be bad if used incorrectly too.

You can fix the fact that imports are fast by driving in the speed limits. How do you fix the fact that 4WDs are too big, have poor visibility and have dangerous impact zones. You can not fix this by driving within the speed limit.

Too big - a matter of opinion. You're used to a 2 door whale (as I am ) so any 4wd is going to seem quite big. It ain't too big when you've got 7 people to carry around.

Poor Visibility - again, a matter of opinion.

Dangerous impact zones - anything moving at speed is dangerous. 4wds need to be treated with respect and driven correctly, as with any vehicle.

I know - buses fit exactly into the criteria you mentioned above. They're big, heavy and have poor visibility.. should we ban them?

As for doing 180 in a rav4 legally, there are roads in NT that have no limit. As for it being unsafe i say if ur on a desrted road with no houses close and ur in the car by urself then the worst u can do is kill urself so whats the harm? 

No way. You'd be dangerously close to the speed rating of the tyres and also, what about that retired couple putting along in their 4wd with a caravan coming the other way? You're definitely driving in a selfish manner and could possibly hit them if anything went wrong.

There never is a safe place on a public road to do stupid speeds like that. That's part of the excitement for many. But doing it in a Rav4? Cmon..

[Josh]

Dan thats exactly my point! The 4WD's have these problems WITHOUT driver error included, whereas an import doesn't - it takes a driver being stupid to cause the problem!! which addmitedly happens more often than not because of their appeal to people of a young age who may be inexperienced at driving..

[Josh]

The 4wd's ARE bad whether used incorrectly or not, although using one where they are designed to be used is fine, thats their purpose.

[Patto-]

Those unlimited speed roads do not mean you can do whatever speed you like.

If you were doing 180kph in a rav4 the cops would do you for dangerous driving.

[Josh]

hahah they should shoot you and bury the body too for driving a rav4 lol

[DanR33]

ok busses have a special purpose. Just like 4WD's have a special purpose but arent used for it. Busses dont account for about a quarter of vehicles on our roads like 4WD's do. And you require a special licence to drive a bus. any doosh bag can drive a 4WD. so dont try the semi trailer and bus argument because it has no validity in this discussion. Just like the "imports go fast comment".

As for going 180 - Over east most rural roads are dual carriageway so there'd be alot of forrest inbetween you and oncoming traffic. Ever driven the nullabor? Road trains drive at close to 180 out there. u can see things coming seeings u can see the road hit the horizon dead in front of u. Im not saying 180 is a good idea but u asked how it would even be legal - which my answer is that in NT there are roads which have no speed limit. The other comment was to just state that if u wanna kill urself and dont hurt anyone else go for it if ur that dumb.

Look you cannot get away from the fact most ppl buy 4WD's because they thing that big equals safe. This is a very dumb point of view. If you look at UK where they have safety star ratings small cars rate just aswell. Not many cars get 5 star (because they have to have top marks for padestrian impact) but i mean a Renault clio is a 4 star and a gen7 civic hatch is a 5 star. Safety is not just about protecting occupants but also about saving lives of the ppl you hit. So how does big = safe? People need to get this through their thick skulls!

[Josh]

Dan I agree with you on every point there except the one about road trains doing 180 - I know from personal experience that they don't do 180 as they are electronically limited to 100kph in the engine ecm - which can tell from gearbox and diff ratios when it is made at the factory what speed it is doing. And also any workshop that mucks around with governers on the truck are up for big fines if they crash - thats one of the first things they check when a truck crashes is the ecm printout to see if it was governed and to what.

But yeh everything else was totally agreeable

[DanR33]

ok the road trains doing 180 was an over exaggeration but i swear i seen semis doing in excess of 140km/h. not just on the nullabor but on the pacific hwy in nsw. perhaps this was before they bought in that stuff? aint done much country driving in the last 2 years.

We agree with alot Josh. We'd make a great couple. If you were a chick and i had a decent sized penis that you wouldnt laugh at i'd root u

[Josh]

hahah choice, Im sure if I were a chick I'd be up for that..

[KeeFy]

Thanks josh! The rav4 was not my car of choice, it was my parents. Anyway, i did it on a track, i followed my friend to a track in malaysia and i hit 180 on the staight. Which i then ran out of track... but i doubt it'll go any faster. So is that legal enough for u?

[KeeFy]

OMG Dan, are you trying to steal josh away from me?

[KeeFy]

Now now danny - don't start taking this personally and throw a tantrum..

The only serious reasons I can see that you guys have put forward are:

1. Visibility - Can happen with any car in any situations. Granted 4wd's can be harder to see out of or see past, but they aren't impossible. Just as bad as a commercial van or an import with dark tint. Stop being impatient - if you can't see past it, wait until it has pulled away.

2. Crash damage - true, a heavier car will possibly cause more damage in an impact, but this depends highly upon the impact angle, speed and a heap of other factors. Does this mean that any car over 1.5T should be banned from the road? Hardly.

3. Likelyhood of an accident - take a look at crash stats. The main group to die in auto accidents are males under 25 driving cars too fast or powerful for their experience. Why do insurance companies charge like they do?

4. All 4wd owners are sh*t drivers because they've annoyed me a few times - somehow this is a sweeping generalisation that can be applied to any type of car you like. Weak.

5. The Environment - I love this one. Somehow a larger engine with all the major pollution gear, revving at lower speeds kills the environment quicker than a high revving forced induction "track" car? Do the math on gas output alone - I don't think so...

Dan - I'm not getting into a name-calling contest, I'm merely applying your own arguments to the import scene. I drive one and love it. I'll probably get one for my next car and possibly the car after that. I just don't try to kid myself that I'm any better or have any more right to be on the road than anyone else...

Cmon guys - you can do better than this.... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are others, they cause higher % of fatalities in children. They take too much space in parking lots, pple can't drive them properly and it amplfies their already not so good driving skills.

Crash stats are true, cause male hormones kick in and they do dumb stuff, it themselves to blame, thus insurance is higher, and due to higher chance of total loss and such. Also it comes to percentiles. High percentage of youngsters drive imports, thus it's gonna be higher. A broad spectrum of pple drive 4WD, so the probability decreases with age, as when u get older, u understand and treasure ur life more.

I don't recall someone mentioning about enviroment, but if enviroment is involved, performance is as to blame as 4wd. 280k with 50lits is not the best of economy. LOL.

Impact angle? Consider the bullbars put up front. That's enough. 1.5T+ at whatever speed concentrated in 1 line of solid metal.

I always do wait for them to go first even if takes ages. I treasure my life and car more than they treasure their 4WD.

I'm generalising a little that a number of them can't drive in a sense, but the main point is that they are obstructive on the road, and in parking lots. Also in accidents, they cause more damage to others and higher chance of death for others.