Sydneykid

Have a read of this first it may help you understand what is currently happening. http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...howtopic=103158 The link to the R33GTST Group Buy thread follows, it has plenty of answers to the common questions; http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/in...showtopic=85467 Please then ask any thing else that you need to know cheers

I can also relate to strong RB30 standard internals. The RB30/RB25DE we built 6 years ago has now covered 85,000 k's and still makes the same power as it did when it was built, 475 bhp on the engine dyno and 285 rwkw. cheers

My experience has been that you tend to get a bit of detonation reduction by lowering the heat range. This becomes more important as boost rises, I picked 12psi as the rule of thumb as that is when the standard turbo is usually upgraded. So it's a good time to go for a lower heat range plug. Suggestion follow; 1. That's why I used 8,000 k's in my example. 2. True, but (there is always a but) the copper core still conducts better. All they are doing is trying to get back what they lost by going to iridium/platinum. They can't improve the conductivity, so they reduce the anode surface area to concentrate the spark. Some people argue that this reduces the size of the spark and therefore slows down the flame propagation. 3. Quite logical, since the anode is smaller, it wears out quicker. I have yet to find a car that doesn't get improved performance when the iridium/platinum plugs are changed at 40,000k's. This is despite the manufacturers claim of 100,000k's, they might "last" 100,000k's but the performance drops off noticeably over 40,000k's. What I was aiming for with the original post was to give people an easy to understand and quick to implement rule of thumb. Not the definitive encyclopaedia of spark plugs. cheers

Hi Geoff, thsi link doesn't seem to work, or is it my stupid firewall? Instructions http://url=http://www.skylinesaustralia.co...showtopic=58778 cheers

Hi Vincent, the first job is to get it on the dyno and check it out, Maybe the tune is fine for your purposes and you need to do nothing. Next, there are a few levels of F-Con, and quite a few different ways to implement them, you really need to find out exactly what level of integration the Fcon has on your car. Once you know that, you can make a more informed decision. The R32GTR standard ecu is easily chippable, so keeping the Fcon to run the MAP for AFM substitution and then tune the ignition timing and fuel maps via the chipped ECU. cheers

This is not a simple discussion, the subject of spark plugs is quite complex. Following are some Skyline/Stagea specific clarifications based on my experiences; Copper is a better conductor of electricity than iridium or platinum, so a copper plug can run a larger gap than an iridium or platinum plug. Iridium and platinum plugs are used for their life, they last longer, NOT for their performance. This is because of the increased service intervals and the high labour costs involved in changing plugs. The total cost over, say, 100,000 k’s is cheaper using iridium or platinum plugs than it is using copper plugs. That’s the case if you pay someone to change your plugs, if you change them yourself, then copper plugs are cheaper. The numbers; Copper plugs last for 8,000k’s and cost $18 for the 6 Iridium or platinum plugs last for 40,000 k’s and cost $120 for the 6 $18 X 5 is less than $120 X 1 = copper plugs are cheaper But if the workshop charges you say $40 a time to change the 6 plugs = iridium/platinum plugs are cheaper. Spark plugs come in a variety of gaps, for example NGK BCPR6ES come in 1.1 mm gap (BCPR6ES – 11) and in 0.8 mm gap (BCPR6ES – 8). Retail outlets carry the most popular part number (in this case BCPR6ES – 11). It may be that some popular N/A car uses the same plug configuration, so they carry that plug gap. It is NOT because that plug gap is somehow “standard” for that plug configuration. As we increase boost (from standard) the inlet airflow and combustion pressure can literally blow out the spark. To overcome that we can either use higher output coils to give a “bigger” spark that will jump the gap even under the higher pressures. Or we can reduce the gap that the spark has to jump. Up to a point, reducing the gap has no real bad effects, but if we have to reduce the gap too far the engine will loose power. This is because there is simply not enough spark to properly ignite the fuel. An experienced dyno operator can pick this because he has to advance the ignition to hold the power. Advancing the ignition gives more time for the smaller spark to spread the flame. This is obviously a band aid, as we start to run into detonation problems if we advance the ignition too far. My suggestion is (if you change your own) use copper plugs of the correct heat range and gap. If you can’t get the right gap spark plugs off the shelf, then gap them down. Simple rule of thumb for DIY plug changers; Standard boost = BCPR6ES – 11 12 psi = BCPR6ES – 8 Up to 19 psi = BCPR7ES – 8 Over 19 psi = BCPR7ES – 6 Until we get so much airflow that the standard coils won’t fire the 0.6 mm plug gap. Or the power drops off. Then its time to upgrade the coil packs, go to CDI or whatever. We can usually increase the plug gap and start the process all over again. Warning, this is not a definitive explanation, the result is a simple rule of thumb that you can employ. Then you can fine tune the slection for you own specific purposes and remember every engine is different. cheers

I will keep this short..............it's just repeating what I have said numerous times. Remember BHP = Torque X RPM Advantages Say you want 650 bhp, the RB31 will achieve it at ~7,000 rpm the RB25 will need ~8,400 rpm. The cost in components (particularly valve train) is multiples higher for 8,400 rpm than it is for 7,000 rpm. The wear and tear on the up & down and round & round bits is much higher at 8,400 rpm than 7,000 rpm. For 7,000 rpm, you don't need the agressive camshaft profiles that you need for 8,400 rpm. This means more low down (below boost rpm) torque. Then you need to consider the drive train components, to be as fast accelerating as the RB30, the RB25 will have to launch at higher rpm. This means stronger clutch, tailshaft, drive shaft diff etc. Plus, to use the 8,400 rpm properly, you will need to shorten the gearbox ratios (not cheap) or the diff ratio (still not cheap). None of this is necessary with the RB30 because it doesn't rev any higher (to make the power) than the standard RB25 did. An RB30 is simply a long stroke RB25/26, the bore is the same. OS Giken make a 3 litre, HKS make a 2.7 litre stroker, Trust make a 2.8 litre stoke and bore. These are the big gun engines, the workshops know that extra capacity brings rewards. We are lucky that RB30's are so common (doors), easy to get and cheap. Last year we exported 5 X RB30DET (DETT) to UK and USA race teams, they also understand the advantages of 20% more capacity. Dissadvantages; Well you are going to spend a lot of money to get an RB30 to rev as high as a forged RB26. But if you do, it is going to make some serious power. No block mounted oil squirters, they can be fitted, with some difficulty. Although ceramic coating the piston crowns and oil retention coating the piston skirts has proven to be just as effective. Tight balancing is required, the RB30 is not a "long stroke" engine, they are almost perfectly square (86 mm bore and 85 mm stroke). So it's not as bad as the high rpm lovers would have you believe. The bottom line The reality is if spend the same amount of money on an RB30 (as an RB25) it will make more power at lower rpm, cost less in maintenance and be more economical due to its greater low rpm (off boost) torque. cheers

Tuning for power is dead easy, it's not the problem. The issue is the complexity and knowledge/experience required to do the initial set up. Just setting up the crank and camshaft angle sensor inputs and parameters is not a task for an inexperienced Autronic user. As is configuring the the TPS, water temp sensor, air temp sensor, ignitor impedance and dwell, injector delay etc etc. All the stuff that takes hours and requires both intimate Autronic and Skyline knowledge. It is not unusual to spend a whole day on set up before the car goes anywhere near the dyno. That's after a couple of days of wiring. When you do start tuning, the maps are blank, there is NOTHING there. You have to have some knowledge to be able to load simplistic maps so at least the engine wil start. With a power FC, all of that stuff is set up, loaded, tested, configured, debugged and ready for you to tune. It even has a basic tune that works, at least the engine will start after a 5 minute install. cheers

I'm not "bad mouthing the Motec and Autronic systems" if it came across that way I appologise. What I was doing was taking in what ookami posted and then making my best suggestion. I have been involved/managed race teams using Autronic ECu's and CDI's on 5 X race cars, 2 X BMW Supertourers and 3 X Perkins customer V8 Supercars. I have the utmost respect for them in a race team anvironment, where there are technicians on hand who understand the Autronic system. I have used 10+ Motecs on race cars, we currently have 4 X ECU's, 3 X CDI's and 2 X dash board loggers on the Honda and the Nissan Supertourers. On the 2 X rotaries we use Microtechs because they suite that application very well. The interface with the PI dash and data logger is a bit tricky though. The Motec ECU to Motec Dash interface is very nice. Horses for courses as they say. If I was building an all out Skyline race car I would probably choose a Motec ECU and dash (again) because of my greater experience with them. But if someone gave me an Autronic and a PI System instead, I wouldn't be dissappointed. cheers

How much would you like to bet on it? I can produce video, photos and magazine articles to support it. Hell, everyone knows the car, it's legendary. Datalogit seems to do a pretty good job of logging, as does Power Excel. The Motec or PI dashes/data loggers we use in the race cars do a better total job than ECU logging on its own. There are quite few inexpensive loggers around these days that would be cheaper/better than paying for an Autronic (or Motec). So if HKS uses HKS ECU's that's not counted, are they somehow not a "Professional Race Team"? Or Apexi uses Apexi ECU's, you don't count that either, are they truly not considered a "Professional Race Team"? What about Mines using their own chipped standard ECU's, are they not to be considered a "Professional Race Team"? Have I got this right, what you are saying is you are only a "Profession Race Team" if you use someone elses ECU? I took into account what ookami originally posted, he knows little about ECU's, lives in "hicksville" (his word not mine) and wants to be able to drive his car "a fair way to get it tuned". These are not words I would normally associate with an Autronic (or Motec) ECU. When it's done and I am happy, I will post it up. My impression was that ookami's intention was not an "out-and-out race car" hence the Power FC suggestion. If he had used words like "trailered, regular runs down the 1/4, drag use only, not on the road, deregistered, etc" then I might have given a different suggestion. So I stick by my original posts. cheers PS; I am always ready willing and able to support anything that I post.

Yeh, but that is AFTER the racing has finished, no corners WHILE the racing is on. I will be there shortly when the weather cools down a bit. We have a project R33GTST underway at the moment, that I would like to see do an 11 before we are finished. Plus the Stagea needs to set a time, just for fun. The last time I drag raced a 1/4 mile was in Australia at Castlereigh, however I did a meeting a few years later at the old Pomona track in California. So RUSTY would be an understatement. cheers PS, can't make it this Wednesday, we have a race team meeting.

Woohoo Ian, don't foget to keep the steering wheel straight, no corners remember. I will be interested in seeing what time it will do. cheers

Yes, that's correct, what else did you expect to see? cheers

Hi Tommy, fluid flow dynamics, not my best subject, lets see if I remember enough; The problem that I have with using the Apexi peak reading is it includes acceleration enrichment (if any was needed during the capturing of the max reading). For example it may well have been 80% + 12% = 92%. In that example the real power producing, as distinct from accelerating, injector duty cycle may well be 80%. The numbers; Fuel 700 cc per minute X 6 = 4.2 litres per minute 4.2 litres per minute x 80% = 3.3 litres per minute 3.3 litres per minute X 60 = 198 litres per hour 198 litres per hour X 0.7 (specific gravity of fuel) = 138 kgs per hour Air 1600 kgs per hour A/F ratio 1600 / 138 = 11.6 to 1 Power 700 X 80% = 560 cc’s = 560 bhp 560 bhp / 1.34 = 418 kw 418 kw – 80 kw losses = 337 rwkw Usually these sorts of rough calculations need an engine efficiency correction to 90%. So 337 rwkw @ 90 % = 304 rwkw. I can’t remember, is that somewhere around your dyno readings? Cheers

Skewed sample. It is very intersting to read about upgrades, big turbos, rebuilds, mods, huge power etc etc. So people post this sort of stuff on a forum. It is not vey interesting to read about untouched engines that have had no mods. So people don't post this sort of stuff on a forum. For example, I have a 180,000 k's old engine, never beeen touched. Had a cambelt and tappet adjustment at 100,000 k's. Gets new set of plugs every 20,00k's, oil change at 10,000k's has zero mods except boost up and good turbo back exhaust. It's pretty boring stuff, I'd be lucky to get a reply. cheers

As usual the numbers tell the story; In a 6 cylinder 700 cc's injectors = 700 bhp That's with around 20% left for acceleration enrichment Having flow tested several brands of injectors they always flow a bit more than their rating. Around 3% seems to be normal. The injector duration usually maximises at rpm where the acceleration enrichment shouldn't need to exceed 10%. So you should have around 13% overhead on the 700 cc injectors at 700 bhp. That's enough for another 90 bhp or so. Confirmed by the real world; I have seen an engine (on the engine dyno) make 750 bhp with 6 X 700 cc injectors. 700 cc's X 6 = 4.2 litres per minute = 252 litres per hour So one 255 litre per hour fuel pump would cover them. But I am not a fan of Walbro pumps, an old post of mine explains why; ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using the standard wiring (ie; 11.5 volts at the pump) the R32GTR fuel pumps are OK for ~265 rwkw. If you use a relay and dedicated wiring (ie; 13.8 volts at the pump) they are OK for ~300 rwkw. The Z32 fuel pump is pretty similar to the R32GTR one. The R33GTR fuel pump actually flows slightly more. I have not tested an R34GTR fuel pump, or seen a proper test of one. Following is the best test of Nissan pumps I have seen; The following is a good example of what happens to a fuel pump's flow when the voltage changes; Fuel pumps are rated at flow versus pressure, that's why I laugh when is see stuff like "500 bhp fuel pump". Bosch fule pumps are rated at 73.6 psi, Assuming 36 psi fuel pressure (above boost) the Bosch pumps will flow their rated capacity up to 2.5 bar boost. As you can see from the above at 13.5 volts the Walbro GSS341 flows 260 l/h (its rating) at zero boost (ie; ~36 psi fuel pressure). But at 2 bar this drops to 220 l/h. A comparsion in size; Flow at pressure is all about consistent torque, and a fuel pump needs torque from its electric motor. As usual if you want more torque you need a bigger motor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope that was of some help cheers

My Power FC has an air temp sensor and a correction table. cheers

I run NGK BCPR6ES in RB25's gaped at 0.8 mm. cheers

I have measured a few Jap cages and the wall thickness has been fine. The Japanese standard allows the same size pipework in all elements of their roll cages. The main problem is the main hoop OD is smaller than the ANDRA and CAMS standards. The other pipework elements are OK. cheers

Compression test are too easily affected by outside factors, so I rely on the leak down test results. Leak down around 20% (or less ) is OK for 12+ year old car. The 28% on 2 cylinders is a bit more than I would be happy with. cheers

Quick answers, as there is a thread on every answer; Stagea weighs around 250 kgs more than an R33GTST, 200 kgs fo the 4wd system and 50 kgs for the waggon. S1 has 170 kw, S2 has 206 kw, 260RS has 206 kw (more like 246 kw) S1 is pretty much auto only, S2 has tiptronic and the rare manual, 260RS is manual They have 4wd "traction" not to be confused with "handling". In the wet our R33GTST (same power) can not keep up, in a straight line or around corners. That's "traction", in the dry it's the other way around. Suspension is basically R33GTR front and R33GTST rear. The Neo engine (S2) is the same as that in an R34GTT, infinitely variable inlet camshaft timing (S1 has simple on or off), larger turbine cover on the turbo, solid camshaft followers and a larger intercooler. Many Stageas were sold new with "body kits", for example DAYZ is a large Stagea dealer that has their own (OE quality) body kits. There are plenty of styles available, from mild skirts and bumpers to a full R34GTR front conversion. I have no idea of the resonant frequency, it's a large box so I am sure you can fill it. Hope that helps Cheers

Hydraulic lifters cheers

I have an RB31DET with 420+rwkw and a Power FC with one Q45 AFM, no problems. PFC = out of the box, install in 5 minutes and drive to the dyno. Autotune on Autronics is OK, but you need a fast and wide lambda sensor and the tune needs to be close'ish before it will auto tune. Simplistically you can't just sick it in with no maps and expect auto tune to do the rest. If you have a fast and wide lambda sensor, display and some experience you could get it perfect using auto tune and then trimming yourself. You don't need a dyno. Forgetting about mapping for a minute, there is a considerable amount of setting up to be done with the Autronic before the engine will even start. You really need someone with experience to do it, it's not a job for a first timer that's for sure. The PFC is the best answer. cheers

All that system does is make sure that there is no air trapped in the engine. All the water lines feed upwards to for areas where localised trapped air is possible. Does NOTHING for improved water circulation. cheers

I have seen a Power FC and AFM equiped GTR run 8's at 165 mph and make 1100 bhp. Is your target higher/faster than that? If not, the Power Fc is your best choice. cheers