Ponderings For The Tarmac Rally Guys.

[Snowman]

So - at what point do we expect the rules for classics will allow Turbo AWD cars in?

The max classics age is already up to 1991 this year and yet GT-R's are still banned. I think EVO's started being produced in 92? and WRX's in 94. Eventually they are going to have to let them in I presume but at what point is that going to be?

But it is almost to the point now where it is pointless even thinking about owning certain cars for rallies, but then if they do get let in then it will make others redundant.

What's everyones thoughts?

[t01-100]

The life of early 4WD cars was given an injection of life with the new Early Modern competition as seen at Targa Wrest Point and soon to be seen at Targa Tasmania. The number of early to mid 90s turbo and 4WD turbo cars is on the rise again thanks to the number of import race/rally cars entering the country now not having to do battle with late model Lambos, 911s and GT-Rs.

I don't see 4WD cars entering classic, unless you want to run a Jensen!

The technology gap between 2WD carby and 4WD fuel injected turbo is just too great. There will always be wild V8s and superfast 911s in classic, but the base car is still pretty ordinary… in comparison a GT-R, Evo or STi are space shuttles!

[Marlin]

Yeah Snowy it's something I've been pondering since buying my 32.

Bloody hard to work out how it should be done, as if the Evo/GTR/STi etc were to come into the classic comp lots of people would say it should be a cakewalk for them and you'd need one to compete. Although, that argument doesn't really hold water when you compare say, Broadbent's 1972 Porshe times with the modern cars, the guy ard car are very fast! And personally, I wouldn't bet on any of the STI/EVO/GTR brigade against, say, a Porshe 968 CS turbo, even in the wet....

I think maybe the best way is have a seperate division for say 1990 through maybe 2000 4WD cars (EDIT: which yes, is really what Stu has pointed out that Early Modern is).

Stu's reading, and should be good for some insight......

Edited February 19, 2009 by Marlin

[Snowman]

So is that to say Stu that even in 4 years time the R32 GTR's and early EVO's will be forced to compete against cars technically superior cars where as a 993 GT2 will be allowed under classics because it is 2WD? What about in 10 years time?

There has to eventually be a point where it gets conceeded that early Turbo AWD technology just doesn't stack up to modern technology.

Because even the newly introduced "Early Modern" catagory (which I applaud the concept of) seems a bit vague in that for what ever reasons some of the cars technically eligable for that catagory are still found in full Modern (Matt Close for example).

It just seems confusing to me that some vehicles are being penalised simply for being better than their rivals at the time! I mean if someone wins the 1st 6 races of a GP2 season they aren't going to say "Sorry you are too good so we are going to make you race against the F1's now but in this car".

[sav man]

Matt close can stay in late modern

[Marlin]

Yeah I don't understand why Closey is in Modern, he really should be in early modern. No one had a problem when the Porshe turbo was new and running agaist the GTR's........ why now?

[Snowman]

This is my point. It seems vehicles are being unfairly penalised for being too good. Well at least better than it's competition. If this is the case then why bother having age determining classes at all?

If it is all in the end being technology driven then why not have classes based on technology only? At least then people won't be buying a car based upon the fact that they think in X years it will be in the top of it's class only to be duped on what can really only be someone's whim!

[t01-100]

Hot topic, I love it!!

Years ago (maybe five I think) the tail end of Classic used to be 1981 (Cat 6), Modern started at 1982 (Cat 7) and Cat 8 started at 1990. Cat 7 used to get a raw deal running against the latest models (993/996 Turbo and R33/34 GTR) and very few ran in this group as the years went by as they in were cars like heavy injected 911s and underpowered Alfa GTVs and 944s.

As we know the late eighties saw a series of developments that included more main stream cars being turbocharged and 4WD being introduced... therefore this was seen as the next technological step that until recently with really good ABS, traction and stability control we still exist in.

Since its alignment with Classic competition Cat 7 (1982-1990) has bloomed, so we got that bit right!

Couple of years ago we noticed that Cat 8 could become what Cat 7 used to be, so we considered aligning Cat 8 with Classic, but in the interest of maintaining a genuinely classic (read: older car) field we though the best way to embrace the early Playstation generation Evo/STi/GTR era as a separate group and so we introduced a new competition in Early Modern. Importantly we needed this competition to keep a buffer from the late model jets like 997 GT3/2 and GTR.

The plan is that post-1990 2 and 4WD cars would run together and not moved into classic as they get older, but as we do now and have done for years move any 4WD turbo from Cat 7 into Cat 8... including Ford RS200s and Lancia Delta's like previous.

If someone chooses to, a Cat 8 car can run in Cat 9 (Modern) as Matt Close did, but a 996 Turbo can run in Early Modern if the owner wants too.

Edited February 19, 2009 by t01-100

[Marlin]

Yeah hot topic, keep it goin boys!

[sav man]

how good are early 4wd's realy? with the exeption of the group b homoligation cars. Looking back at wrc in the 80s, the 2wd cars were still bloody quick on tarmac (Seirra RS500, Lancia 037...). I don't think that any of the allowed 4wd cars in Classic Adelaide have been near the front, even with Glenny behind the wheel. I'll be intersed to see if the Celica's go anywhere when they are allowed in next year.

[t01-100]

in a dry event they dont have a great advantage, but in the pasted owned the rest of the classic cars when it gets wet.

glenney put that delta in the top three on the odd stage before it let go.

[Snowman]

But the fact remains that this principle of banishing these cars means you are effectively writting them off from ever being competative again - which if you ask me is a shame as they WERE the pinicle in automotive technology at their time.

Personally I feel that on the condition the classes were kept on a moving scale this would give all cars really a chance to be at the top of each catagory for a period of time before perhaps slowly being shuffled down the list as new technologies come into each class.

But the fact is some of the greatest and most influential cars ever made are never going to be able to show how good they were in their era. Cars like the R32 GTR, the RS2000 and the Delta will never get the chance to show how much better they were in certain circumstances over their same generation rivals and yet those cars have been majorly influencial in the direction of many sportscars over the last 20 years.

But as things stand there will be no point what so ever in looking into owning one of those great cars for the purpose of Tarmac rallying because they will have no place - all so we can keep a few porsche drivers happy hey!

[Duncan]

Ahh this is a hot topic isn't it.

I understand totally how/why Stu is reasoning and how it protects numbers of entries (and therefore the viability of the event).

But it stinks. And don't worry its not just Tarmac rally, as we all know plenty of categories changed their rules to stop GTRs because they were too good (Group A, JGTC, Le Mans all banned 4wd cars shortly after the GTR came along).

I see that the rallies are protecting the cars of the 80s because there are tarmac rally prepped cars and owners but it is unnatural in terms of the car's evoulation over the years.....its not like anyone is protecting pre WW2 cars because of the big leap in technology in the 50s and 60s.

I'm sure it won't change- we need class based racing to allow a wider range of participants (not every can afford a lambo to compete in outright), if there were no classes there would be pathetic fields like the 10 or so cars the ARC had turn up to Rally Tas.

[Snowman]

But then that's my point with roving classes. If the classes change with each year (effectively moving up a year each year) then there should be a cycle where every dog has it's day. Bascally as is the case with modern.

I mean we may have now seen the end of the EVO dominance (Glenny aside but look at the TWP results) and who would have thought that would be the case 2 years ago when they were filling more than 50% of the top 10 places in some rallies.

But it just means that late classics would now start to be dominated by turbo awd's - just as the modern would have been 20 years ago had it existed back then. In 3 years time early classic will be filled with Carrera RS' where they will no doubt dominate so why not give them a few years of hardship as well?

Even if these cars were forced to run under modern regs but could compete in classics it would be a better solution than banishing them off completely.

[t01-100]

I get what you’re saying Snowy, but such a move will result in the reduction of classic entries… we’ surveyed the competitor base and that was the feedback in recent years.

If I had the choice of cars to run to have a crack at winning Early Modern (1991-2002 including 80’s 4WDs), I've pick an 1989 GTR Nismo... under the option rules I could run a nice thick radiator, an oil cooler and 18s, with a good cage, brakes and well set up suspension it would have every bit of a R34 on performance and weigh less, plus it’d be a decent match for a 996 Turbo or GT2.

[sav man]

You'd pick a R32 over a R33/R34? Might be lighter, but it's got those big old laaggy turbo's, old slow attessa, and older suspention

[Snowman]

I get what you’re saying Snowy, but such a move will result in the reduction of classic entries… we’ surveyed the competitor base and that was the feedback in recent years.

Ok - but what is it going to be like in 3-4 years time? The same thing or is the plan to always keep the sub 2002 cars together and not bring the later model EVO's and porka's in? aka - stop revolving the class dates and kind of fix them where they are now?

This is the reasons for my question originally. Just say someone wanted to get into this sport but doesn't have the coin for something like an RS porsche and can't justify getting involved with the modern catagories. They could look at the eary modern or else look at something cheap but competative in classics - like what Ben has done with the R32 GTS-T.

Now in a couple of years the same could be said for something like an R33 GTST if the class dates keep moving - it could be a good thing and something you could put together for not much coin (or a 2jz supra!). But if someone was to go to the effort of doing that they be PISSED if suddenly the decision came in that R32-R33 GTR's were now eligable because an R32 GTR could be put together for similar coin.

It's a catch twenty two - because whilst you say classics entries will drop for some classic guys if those cars do go in, eventually all the turbo AWD guys will go too if they have no where to play either!