Make My Gt30r Reach Full Boost Earlier....

[Cubes]

Throw the 14psi bighead actuator on it.

Mine with the 1bar 'small head' had the same boost build issues, it was 'better' with the Profec B by a full 1500rpm peak boost but the big head actuator pulled the peak spool in by another couple hundred rpm.

[Lithium]

I am thinking that might be the way to go - are there any dealers on here who would be a good one for me to speak to about sending one to NZ? The support for that kind of thing here is terrible.

Skylinecouple, cheers - yeah the car is running fine... I was fighting with the issue (I think I mentioned it to you) way back when, but while improving it a little nothing has fixed it completely and previously hasn't been annoying enough for me to really attack with everything but now the novelty is wearing off and I want it to go as good as it should be!

In the meantime, I am off to see if I can find someone who supplies Norgren bits for me to play with haha

[Pattygtst]

I used the 18psi garrett actuator to run 19psi on my e-boost 2

full boost by 3900rpm rb25det

I had a 7psi spring on there, full boost by 5500rpm

[adzR34]

hmm i think it might be handy to upgrade my 12psi spring to 1bar seeing as the high setting runs at like 16psi. Might gain a few hundred rpms. That is a big improvement Paddy, but then again the 7psi spring would hardly hold....

[Fastrotor]

The thing i don't get is that Lithium ran it with the current actuator, just with the hose disconnected and it went to 15 psi by 3600 rpm .... so if the spring was too weak it should not have improved it so much.

If a boost controller fully kept boost pressure away from the actuator until just before full boost reached the desired level, it should be able to achieve similar results should it not ?

Im only very familiar with the Eboost2, so once i set the duty , and gain, i up the gate pressure till it just over spikes a tad , you can feel the improvement in spool time as you move it up.....

Any of you guys saying the spring helped your situation using external gates ?

For the record i suffer the same problem, using an ext gate with a 9psi spring ...just using solenoid off the computer to up boost, if not active though. full boost (23psi) is 5500 + , ie horrible. (where it shoud be mid-high 3K's).

I have a gizzmo controller to try. Can't say im a fan of the menu system compared to the eboost, but im sure i'll work it out.

But i'd like to hear some reasoning behind why a boost controller cant replicate the no hose mod (ie best case) Lithium replicated. I assume they just don't fully remove boost from the actuator.... guess you need to get the CRO out Lith and measure it.

Gary

[Lithium]

The thing i don't get is that Lithium ran it with the current actuator, just with the hose disconnected and it went to 15 psi by 3600 rpm .... so if the spring was too weak it should not have improved it so much.

Yeah, thats one of the things I was trying to rule out.. to add to it, I did a test which cheated a bit less than the above. I removed the AVC-R from the mix, and just plumbed the pressure source directly into the "boost controller" port of the internal gate as well as having the pressure source fed into the "compressor" port on the wastegate. Took it for a drive and again 15psi by 3600rpm, so the wastegate is working exactly as it should if the boost controller was letting pressure through to the boost control port of the wastegate while spooling.

If a boost controller fully kept boost pressure away from the actuator until just before full boost reached the desired level, it should be able to achieve similar results should it not ?

Thats what I hoped as well

Edited August 13, 2009 by Lithium

[Cubes]

Fastrotor,

Its just the can. The 1bar small head can with the kink in the rod is a piece of shiet.

The large can controls boost much better but due to its straight rod does require modifying.

The difference between the two cans with regards to spool is extremely noticable.

As an example the GT30 .82 on the rb30det was making 1bar at 4500rpm using the small can, the 14psi big head brought this down to ~3000rpm. Massive difference.

The big head can is also better at holding high boost levels as the spring is considerably stiffer.

I'm still a fan of selecting an actuator rated for the boost pressure your running though.

Dont be weak Lithium crank 18-19psi in to that stock rb25.

[Pattygtst]

yeah lith what cubes said

I guarantee if you put the 18psi garrett actuator on there you would get your desired results.

[Fastrotor]

I can't quite understand what you meant above Lithium, with the plumbing arangement ? And if you plumbed it so the boost from the compressor just blows out thru the solenoid with nothing going to the Actuator, then thats the same as no hose connected to actuator, so no gain. Did you mean something else im missing here ?

To me, you have proved without doubt it can boost alot quicker, ie 15 by 3600. So all you have to do is find either a mechanical or electronic controller capable of completely removing any pressure to the actuator until just before you set threshold. That should work fine.

Im thinking cheapest option to verify is use one of the norgren pressure relief valves you mention, or one of the cheap "gated" ball valves.

(make sure the gate is tight enough so that it flatlines at 15 psi (eventually) first when directly connected to comp cover)

Gary

[Fastrotor]

Sorry i was typing my last reply and didnt see your post Cubes until after.

Firstly, that is some great results from a can change Cubes, will keep in mind.

On your Rb30, the original small can, was it just a stock one with the adjustable arm to tighten spring to 14 psi ?

Im asking as i wonder if it has more to do with the spring being so compressed that it leaves little room to move for the diaphram.... ie tighter spring, more boost and less flap is able to open.

Can anyone explain why, if both actuators eventually regulate at 14 psi , why the bigger one would stay closed for longer and aide spool ??

Are we talking direct connection Cubes in your example ?

Gary

[Fastrotor]

Guys, found a really cool PDF for setting the Actuator preload to obtain a boost pressure.

http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/18SP670.pdf

Gary

[_Ryan_]

Yeah, thats one of the things I was trying to rule out.. to add to it, I did a test which cheated a bit less than the above. I removed the AVC-R from the mix, and just plumbed the pressure source directly into the "boost controller" port of the internal gate as well as having the pressure source fed into the "compressor" port on the wastegate. Took it for a drive and again 15psi by 3600rpm, so the wastegate is working exactly as it should if the boost controller was letting pressure through to the boost control port of the wastegate while spooling.

Thats what I hoped as well

Doesn't that test offer a solution? Why run an EBC?

[skylinecouple]

By having a 7lb spring and putting more turns into it to put more pressure on the waste gate flap, you simply shorten the actual length of the actuator rod. This will only give you a little more tension but will shorten the movement of the rod so that you may not get full waste gate opening.

If you use a stronger spring in the first place the waste gate flap won't open 1mm till the spring tension is overcome. Thus you maintain your full rod length. ( Hey, rod length, we could all use some of that right ? ) Oh God, I'm funny. Anyway, enough silliness. Right tool for the right job, 14lb actuator for a 15lb boost level.

Now where did I put that 22lb actuator ?

[Fastrotor]

Ahh, now thats made me think.............. Ok so the "small" actuators spring would increase in tension far more rapidly than the larger actuator, for the same flap opening (this is constant as a certain opening will allow a certain boost.)

So therefore for the same given travel, the smaller spring will have to start at a lower seat pressure, so that at full extension required it is up around the 14pound.

Ie small might be 7pound and end at 14 for a set travel, whereas the larger,longer spring might only increase from 13-14 pounds in the same distance ..... make sense ?

I think im happy with that explanation as to why the bigger pods work well.

Any mech engineers confirm my thoughts ?

Gary

[Lithium]

Doesn't that test offer a solution? Why run an EBC?

Haha not sure if you are joking or not - but just in case, I was free boosting. I backed off when boost hit 1.1bar - not when it stopped climbing. It was climbing FAST, and if I didn't lift off it would have kept going until something else stopped it

It was just a test to see if it will spool well if the wastegate doesn't open prematurely, and it does.

Fastrotor - Not sure quite what you meant, do you understand how an electronic boost controller controls a dual port/external wastegate? I'm a little tired, so could just be failing at reading you right.

The dual port actuator has two sides, one is the "compressor" feed which is just a line from a boost source - same as any other turbo setup without a boost controller. The other goes to a second port on the wastegate, which is used by electronic boost controllers to regulate boost. What they do in this case is let boost into that side of the wastegate to effectively beef up the actuators resistance to opening by pushing the wastegate closed - when the target boost level is reached the boost controller stops pushing boost into this side of the actuator and the the "normal" spring tension collapses to the original boost feed and wastegate opens.

What I did to prove the actuator would allow this to happen is just put the boost feed into both sides of the actuator, to ensure that it stayed shut- just in case somehow it could creep open... which would be possibly caused by a leak or restriction on the boost controller line.

If I am answering the right thing, does that make sense?

[Fastrotor]

Ahhh ok sorry Lithium, i though you had an INTERNAL wastegate, with the talk of bigger actuators etc. Ok, i was rushing to leave work at that time, so i didn't pick up on it.

Hmm anyway, pretty much same deal, since you proved the best case scenario, a good boost controller should be able to come very close.

I've used the Norgren pressure reg lots of times on EXTERNAL gated cars. No problems, works real good. However i did recently have a rotor that began to spike in the winter, so we fitted an Eboost2. No probs with spiking, and also boost comes on quicker now, owner is over the moon..... (and thats on a 250rwkw HIFLOW, so it was already a monster down low in a 1000kg car)

I've only played with the avc-r once many years ago, and they seemed difficult, and a few reviews i've read seem to confirm there a pain to set up..... got a mate with a BLITZ DSBC-r or gizzmo or something else to try perhaps ??

Trent from URAS rates them pretty highly(gizzmo), just under the Blitz

, and he was kind enough to post up some graphs to support his preferences

Gary

Edited August 13, 2009 by Fastrotor

[Lithium]

I do have an internal wastegate, its just dual port like externals

[Lithium]

Someone on another forum asked how I had plumbed up the whole thing, so I thought I better show it here:

I have ordered a Norgren pressure relief valve which will be here on Monday, will see what happens if I just block the pressure feed until 1bar is reached and then let the AVCR regulate it from there - given it seems to hold the boost when it is finally reached.

[psi]

A mate of mine has an electronic boost controller.. i didn't pay any attention to brand.. AVCR maybe?

he was having some similar issues to you guys. He was also looking for bigger boost and the controller couldn't do it.

I told him to put a restrictor in the line BEFRORE the solinoid. I said to add something like a carby jet or welding tip. He added a CIG welding tip (1mm i think) and remapped his program. The car has a lot stronger mid range, even with no boost increase and the solinoid isn't working so hard when he is pumping out hi boost.

The restrictor limits the volume of air that the controller gets to see, it wont change to pressure. But, because the small restrictor is in place, it takes time for the line to 'fill' up with boost pressure and the engine ramps onto boost quicker.

Some times the solinoids being used just cant dump enough air to hold the required levels.

In your programming, you want to be able to tell the solinoid to stay shut for as long as possible to increase the mid range. Depending how it is set up, in my freinds set up, the solinoid is inline so when the solinoid is shut, no air gets to the actuator.

does that help? or is that completly not what your saying?

[Lithium]

Nah you are in the right direction, the problem in this case seems that the actuator is so soft that as soon as it gets a blast of >10psi it opens even if it has been bled a bit by the solenoid. The AVCR doesn't allow 100% duty so unfortunately I can never completely block the actuator from opening... which is why I have decided on a pressure relief valve to completely block pressure from the actuator until around 14psi and THEN let the AVCR take over