How Does The Cylinder Firing Order Work?

[gt-ahhh!]

hello, im looking at ecu options for my rb25. looking for 240+rwkw with gcg hi-flow and supporting mods.

basically im down to:

envy imports nistune ~$1300

ems stinger ~$1400

full management (haltech, pfc) ~$2400+

money is a factor, obviously, otherwise id just fork out for a haltech and be done with it (and id drive an r34 gtr lol)

i previously had a nistune which may have contributed to engine failure. the car was running so rich it gunked up the motor and seized a valve. and so i am leaning towards the ems stinger.

what i want to know is this. the stinger apparently only has 4 output cycles (forgive my lack of ecu-speak) for injector pulse and/or ignition firing. im told that in 6 cylinder applications tuners use 3 outputs but apply them to 2 cylinders each.

to my limited knowledge, this sounds very inefficient and defeats the purpose of multipoint injection and sequential ignition. im told the drivability will suffer slightly off boost, but peak power etc will be fine.

however an advantage is a map sensor, which seems a much better setup with atmo bovs and decent power etc.

do the cylinders all fire one after the other ie: 1.2.3.4.5.6 (whatever the order is)

or 12.....34......56?

[_Ryan_]

Autronic SMC is 1800ish from memory, plus tune would be in the haltech ballpark.

link/vipec is another option, they make a skyline plug in unit, I would take that over a PFC. Factor in a MAP sensor based ECU is saving you money on a Z32 MAF, this 300$ can be used on the ECU, or pocketed.

Any ECU is only as good as the tune, cant blame the nistune for the motor death.

[gt-ahhh!]

already have a z32. but i suppose i could sell it, its only seen 10000km or so.

[TiTAN]

if the stinger only has 4 injector drivers dont use it on a 6cyl engine, you need to batch fire the injectors so you end up wasting heaps of fuel. providing the tune is good there should be no reason for it not to be just as good using nistune as using the haltech

[QWK32]

the standard firing order is 1 5 3 6 2 4, fired sequentially. there will be a haltech, or a vipec or what ever you pick that will support sequential fire and inject. even EMS has a sequential ecu that supports 6 cylinder engines. if you go for the 4 output setup you will need to setup a wasted spark ignition, like the 3/2 falcon commodore coil packs. and as TiTAN has mentioned, batch fire your injectors.

[daisu]

How come you list nistune seperately from full management?

[Beer Baron]

if it's tuned well the nistune is a good option. which is the same as the other 2 really. they are only as good as the tune that's in them. so considering it's price and the factory like features it retains I would put the nistune at number 1 preference of those 3 options. or have you considered power FC? they have been great for me in all the cars I've run them in.

anyway, of the 3 you suggest I'd be talking to envy about what you want but I'm sure if tuned right the nistune will be good.

[gt-ahhh!]

How come you list nistune seperately from full management?

because nistune uses airflow meters (as does pfc) which my tuner is not a fan of. also, nistune cant be retuned. if you make any modifications later nistune is much harder and expensive to adjust than a plug and play ecu eg: haltech.

if i was an envy imports regular id probably lean more towards nistune, i have heard a lot of good things about it. but my tuner has advised me differently. and i plan to sell the car soon, im sure whoever buys it will appreciate an ecu they can easily retune if they add modifications.

[TiTAN]

the nistune has on the fly tuning.. who ever told you it didnt either lied or were misinformed.

[lachlanw]

to answer your question . youd link 1-6 2-5 3-4 same as ya do for a wasted spark set up with 3 coils

[gt-ahhh!]

the nistune has on the fly tuning.. who ever told you it didnt either lied or were misinformed.

is that right? when i had it done last year the story was it cant be re-tuned. so now they save a tune file onto a chip and can basically cut + copy new information into the chip?

very interesting...

oh well. for a few hundred $ more i hope its worth staying loyal to my preferred tuner.

[Rolls]

is that right? when i had it done last year the story was it cant be re-tuned. so now they save a tune file onto a chip and can basically cut + copy new information into the chip?

You are talking about an oldschool eeprom remap, a nistune is nothing like this. A nistune has real time tuning support like a full aftermarket ECU, infact I would say it is better than most aftermarket ECUs as it looks stock and retains all the factory features along with almost every feature a full aftermarket ECU has. The nistune is light years ahead of the EMS stinger which is essentially a downgrade as it doesn't have 6 injector drivers.

If they told you that then they must not have installed a nistune and probably just did a crappy remap, the reason I say this is crappy is because most tuners can only be bothered taking the ROM out and erasing/programming it a few times. This means you only have a few shots to get the tune right unlike a real time board where you can easily make 100s of corrections in an hour.

because nistune uses airflow meters (as does pfc) which my tuner is not a fan of.

An AFM is more accurate than a MAP sensor as the MAP doesn't take into account air temperature, remember 30psi of air at 10c vs 40c is a big difference! not to mention that if you change any of your intake that your tune will be completely out, this is as any change in flow will change the restriction and hence the pressure of the air. If you must go MAP make sure you have some form of temperature compensation.

to my limited knowledge, this sounds very inefficient and defeats the purpose of multipoint injection and sequential ignition. im told the drivability will suffer slightly off boost, but peak power etc will be fine.

This is completely true, avoid batch injection mode as it is a massive down grade from the standard ECU.

Personally I would take the nistune without hesitation as it is a fantastic unit that rivals a lot of standalone aftermarket ECUs. The tuning software is also great, much easier to tune than some software out eg, eg wolf etc.

However if your tuner doesn't like nistune for whatever reason I would find someone else as your tune is only as good as the tuner, and if you tuner doesn't have experience with a nistune then I doubt his tune will be as good as someone who does them everyday.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Rolls

[gt-ahhh!]

An AFM is more accurate than a MAP sensor as the MAP doesn't take into account air temperature, remember 30psi of air at 10c vs 40c is a big difference! not to mention that if you change any of your intake that your tune will be completely out, this is as any change in flow will change the restriction and hence the pressure of the air. If you must go MAP make sure you have some form of temperature compensation.

This is completely true, avoid batch injection mode as it is a massive down grade from the standard ECU.

However if your tuner doesn't like nistune for whatever reason I would find someone else as your tune is only as good as the tuner, and if you tuner doesn't have experience with a nistune then I doubt his tune will be as good as someone who does them everyday.

why then is a reputable sydney tuner telling me to steer clear of afm's because of 'reversion' problems? and 'over-fuelling' on gear changes/throttle closure? i have seen afms on massive power cars, but who am i supposed to trust?

ps: the stinger has temperature and barometric pressure compensation.

i dont like the idea of batch injection, but ive been told from two ecu manufacturers now that efficiency is only reduced by 5-10% and driveability losses can hardly be noticed. and at full boost it makes no difference since the injectors are close to constant cycle anyway.

[Rolls]

why then is a reputable sydney tuner telling me to steer clear of afm's because of 'reversion' problems? and 'over-fuelling' on gear changes/throttle closure? i have seen afms on massive power cars, but who am i supposed to trust

Because unless you run a plumback BOV (all manufacturers do these days) the AFM will read double the air flow on gear changes due to the air crossing past the AFM twice. This is a VERY minor problem however and at worst will cause a tiny black puff of smoke on gear changes. The problems that a MAP sensor present are much more serious than a tiny tiny increase in emissions on gear changes or hard throttle to zero throttle transitions.

Who should you believe? Yourself.

Do some research and find out for yourself the pros and cons of each, asking here is a great start but ultimately you cannot trust anyone but yourself, so you should do as much research as possible before you commit to any idea.

Regarding batch injection mode, the difference in fuel economy is entirely due to your tuner however 10% is a big different, if you are using 14L/100km then if you switch to batch injection that is 15.4L/100km. You are buying a new ECU, there is no good reason to buy one that does not have 6 injector drivers and that has less than optimal air measuring sensors.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Rolls

[Beer Baron]

I have run no BOV, recirculating BOVS and tiwn atmo BOVS and have NEVER had reversion problems or overfuelling etc with AFMS. and that includes stock AFMS on GTR, nismo AFMS on GTR, Z32 AFMs on GTR and a Z32 AFM on the silvia. if tuned properly and set-up properly there is no problem with whichever set-up you want to use.

and just like Rolls said the nistune can easily be retuned as many times as you like. I would seriously ring someone like envy who do a lot of them and ask them what features it does/does not have. it';s a very good option.

[Rolls]

I have run no BOV, recirculating BOVS and tiwn atmo BOVS and have NEVER had reversion problems or overfuelling etc with AFMS.

You will get air reversion if you run no bov but if tuned correctly you won't get the black puff of smoke or stalling issues that you get with blocking the bov off on a stock ecu. I know the redtop rb20s never had a bov and they were tuned to suit from the factory, no black puffs or stalling issues at all.