The Import Industry

[Mr Eps]

nigel when i said raws are greedy i meant theknes who charge.little amount n dont fit restraint points etc... not thee good guys!!

[Import Monster]

It's quite interesting to see how different the car compliancing industry operates vs the motorbike compliancing industry.

THe bike guys all seem to watch each others backs and a gentleman's agreement means a lot to them.

Car industry. One guy gets compliance for a particular vehicle. He'll then get the MAX dollar for that plate for as long as he can, knowing that for the moment he has no competition, while flogging evidence packages to anyone who wants them - then he finds himself competing 6-12 months later with a dozen or so other companies who all had the same idea.

Lo and behold, the prices of the plates are then cut by 30-40% for that vehicle as those dozen compliance shops are all fighting over what is basically the same slice of pie that was available before. Sure, the extra availability from state to state increases the amount of people who will import those cars (dealers, brokers and privateers wanting it easy, instead of transporting from interstate) but really there comes a point where the market is flooded with RAWS holding compliance for a vehicle and they have little choice but to start competing with each other on price. Consumers WILL choose one RAW over another based on $1-200 difference and when they have a lot of choice in RAWS to do the work, the cheapest is going to prevail. This is not driven by the consumer, but by the industry itself.

Bike compliancers do it differently. One shop will get compliance for a bike and then lockup deals with one or two other compliancers for the evidence packages AND also lock in exclusive deals with dealers.

So instead of 11ty brokers being able to bring in and gain compliance on a bike, therefore cutting the throat of the prices down, they all agree in essence, to lock the plates down to specific dealers OR, if someone outside that circle wants compliance, they have to pay through the nose for it.

I see some comments blaming a certain section of the broking community for driving the pricing of compliance down... hmmm I'm in two minds about this. Having forged quite solid relationships with a number of RAWS, I find myself being approached by their competition on a pretty regular basis - wanting to know what we're being charged, with the intention of offering a better deal. I'm not approaching these guys, trying to screw them down - they're approaching me to try and pick up extra business. One of my regular shops told me flat out that he's not interested in trying to compete with *insert RAW here* on price as he would not lower his standards to maintain his margin, in order to be able to price match. This is a guy I trust implicitly to do all of my own compliance and I take that advice very seriously. Result? He's $400 per car on average dearer than *insert RAW here*, yet he still gets my business and my recommendations to my clients who, 9 times out of 10, go with that recommendation.

I'm always happy for my clients to choose their own compliance shop if they wish and some do have a preference, the majority however are happy to go with who I suggest. Oftimes, I could get their cars complied for $3-400 cheaper at another shop AND I tell them this - but I believe there is a tripping point where the quality/value for money equation gets triggered and it is not worth the money saved, vs quality of work compromised. Most times they are content to heed my advice, but as per Brad's comments - some people just want the plate affixed to their car as cheaply as possible. Putting aside the argument of legality of the work being done, there seems to me to be a Niche for each type of shop, even with our Niche industry.

Given two of my regular guys called me this week and said they have maxed their plates for the year and are waiting week by week to get their plates back, I can't see the industry falling in a heap in any great hurry. Many of the plates they are issuing are going to clients of people like myself, Kristian, J-Spec and so on - they're essentially being handed the work on a plate by guys who are being paid to do all the running around for the client. No mess, no fuss. Car gets delivered, work gets done, customer pays bill and car gets picked up. So the margins are slimmer than perhaps they'd ideally like, but the work is constant.

Funnily enough, these guys say it's car dealers they have the most dramas with. Bringing cars in, holding a plate for that car and the car sits in their yard uncomplied til it's sold (as the dealer doesn't want to tie up capital in a compliance plate until the car is sold). In his words "I love dealing with you, I know when I apply for an approval, I'm going to get paid inside of 3 months".

If RAWS all worked together closely in each state, then they could really have their cake and eat it. Instead of having 10 shops, each with 100 plates per category, each having compliance for the same vehicles and competing with each other for business - they could pool resources to do testing and share revenues on plates (all plates issued by a shop are easily tracked through dotars so there's really no room for rorting here) then the RAWS industry could not only save money on their outlays, but maintain a far more steady rate for compliance. Sadly, I think this would be seen as price fixing by the ACCC. So, we have our capitalist natures driving competition, consumers pushing for ever better deals and hence the status quo.

Either way, the only thing that WILL kill this industry is Govt legislation. DOTARS think they can run roughshod over us and sadly, we tend to lay down and accept it.

Recently however, we've seen that Govt is not all powerful - NSW RTA taken to the supreme court over ceasing to accept engineers certificates converting El Grand campervans to 7/8 seaters. Industry 1, RTA nil.

Of course, these are my observations only and can be taken with a pinch of salt - as all opinion based diatribes should be

[sbyder]

Recently however, we've seen that Govt is not all powerful - NSW RTA taken to the supreme court over ceasing to accept engineers certificates converting El Grand campervans to 7/8 seaters. Industry 1, RTA nil.

The funny thing is, when someone wants to sell their elgrand outside of NSW, it has to be returned to a 2/3/4 seater. Dotars will not accept that their determinations are wrong. If we used the same ruling applied to elgrands, no import would be acceptable for importation except trucks.

The basics - Elgrand are being complied as passenger vehicles under the campervan category. To be allowed to do this, you need to proove that a van full of people is under the van's GVM. Since Japs have a lower average weight then us, our ruling of 68kg per seating posistion makes them exceed the set GVM for that van.

The really interesting thing is one Elgrand may have a GVM of 2400kg, the next might be 2690kg and their is no difference in brake/suspension or drivetrain to compensate the increase and Dotars wont accept an engineers justification to say that if all the components are the same, then we can increase its GVM to the higher option.

Edited May 26, 2010 by sbyder

[Import Monster]

The funny thing is, when someone wants to sell their elgrand outside of NSW, it has to be returned to a 2/3/4 seater. Dotars will not accept that their determinations are wrong. If we used the same ruling applied to elgrands, no import would be acceptable for importation except trucks.

The basics - Elgrand are being complied as passenger vehicles under the campervan category. To be allowed to do this, you need to proove that a van full of people is under the van's GVM. Since Japs have a lower average weight then us, our ruling of 68kg per seating posistion makes them exceed the set GVM for that van.

The really interesting thing is one Elgrand may have a GVM of 2400kg, the next might be 2690kg and their is no difference in brake/suspension or drivetrain to compensate the increase and Dotars wont accept an engineers justification to say that if all the components are the same, then we can increase its GVM to the higher option.

Interesting, as I have a client who registered his Sydney as an 8 seater and then transferred the rego down to vic and it remained as an 8 seater.

Re the DOTARS rulings, completely unsurprising as they really are a law unto themselves. Making stuff up as they go along with no real thought for the greater implications. Nor communications as to the reasons behind them either.

[BASHO]

Whilst the debate rages over co-operation hows about the whole compliance thing of good in one state and no good in another ?

What of the warning for a person who buys a vehicle in good faith and of the understanding that compliance is , well , compliance, only to find that if they move interstate or sell the vehicle interstate they or the next purchaser may be up for another fat trip to the bank for a re-compliance , or whatever it's called , when they go to re-register / transfer the registration .

I'm on my second import (the first one bought and sold in QLD )and this is something I sure didn't know until I read a post on here about a car that had gone from QLD to SA , never did catch up on the eventual outcome though , I think it was pay up and shut up for the purchaser .

This realy helps resale values , ah hem , --or have I barked up a baloney tree ??

Edited May 27, 2010 by BASHO

[Import Monster]

Whilst the debate rages over co-operation hows about the whole compliance thing of good in one state and no good in another ?

What of the warning for a person who buys a vehicle in good faith and of the understanding that compliance is , well , compliance, only to find that if they move interstate or sell the vehicle interstate they or the next purchaser may be up for another fat trip to the bank for a re-compliance , or whatever it's called , when they go to re-register / transfer the registration .

I'm on my second import (the first one bought and sold in QLD )and this is something I sure didn't know until I read a post on here about a car that had gone from QLD to SA , never did catch up on the eventual outcome though , I think it was pay up and shut up for the purchaser .

This realy helps resale values , ah hem , --or have I barked up a baloney tree ??

Compliance via a RAWS is to ensure compliance with the ADR's, rather than state to state requirements. We have many vehicles complied in one state and registered in another without issues such as this.

If the vehicle were a pre 1989 model, then some states have different requirements for registration, but a SEVS vehicle complied by a RAW should not differ from state to state. THe only time I can see this becoming an issue, is if the compliance work were not done correctly or completely and this were picked up at registration for a vehicle being registered for the first time. I know that SA and WA RTAs check things far more stringently than Vicroads do when registering a vehicle for the first time, going over the consumer information notice step by step - whereas Vicroads assume the car has been complied, approved by Dotars and that's that. Unless the car were blatantly modified or dangerous, then all they do is check the paperwork.

But once the vehicle has been registered in one state, then the process becomes exactly the same as transferring ownership of locally delivered vehicles. IE - fill out transfer papers, get a RWC/blue slip or whatever passes for that in your state and then transfer ownership.

[DRIFTT]

Bike compliancers do it differently. One shop will get compliance for a bike and then lockup deals with one or two other compliancers for the evidence packages AND also lock in exclusive deals with dealers.

So instead of 11ty brokers being able to bring in and gain compliance on a bike, therefore cutting the throat of the prices down, they all agree in essence, to lock the plates down to specific dealers OR, if someone outside that circle wants compliance, they have to pay through the nose for it.

Putting aside the argument of legality of the work being done, there seems to me to be a Niche for each type of shop, even with our Niche industry.

Either way, the only thing that WILL kill this industry is Govt legislation. DOTARS think they can run roughshod over us and sadly, we tend to lay down and accept it.

Recently however, we've seen that Govt is not all powerful - NSW RTA taken to the supreme court over ceasing to accept engineers certificates converting El Grand campervans to 7/8 seaters. Industry 1, RTA nil.

Of course, these are my observations only and can be taken with a pinch of salt - as all opinion based diatribes should be

It might be or it might not be price fixing what the bike workshops are participating in but no body brokers bikes freely like cars so what they get up to isn't a known fact.

The issue is the legality of the work being done so if there workmanship is so good for so little why aren't the business mentioned unless they have something to hide.

With the El Grand I think it is industry won for 18 months, RTA pissed and DOTARS even more pissed, all this will do is make it harder later down the track.

Interesting, as I have a client who registered his Sydney as an 8 seater and then transferred the rego down to vic and it remained as an 8 seater.

Re the DOTARS rulings, completely unsurprising as they really are a law unto themselves. Making stuff up as they go along with no real thought for the greater implications. Nor communications as to the reasons behind them either.

If an El Grand came to WA with approval for extra seats by the RTA in NSW and fitted with the new belts it does not mean DPI over here will just register it. The state requirements over writes federal which is why the RTA lost but it does not mean DPI will approve it to be registered in WA with out looking into to it correctly.

sbyder is correct 100% with returning vehicles to limited seating, it is usually something they miss in some states when transfered which is why they get through, the other issue with GVM is currently being looked at here as it will be what the ADR says not how it turns up from interstate.

The funny thing is, when someone wants to sell their elgrand outside of NSW, it has to be returned to a 2/3/4 seater.

The basics - El grand are being complied as passenger vehicles under the camper van category. To be allowed to do this, you need to prove that a van full of people is under the van's GVM. Since Japs have a lower average weight then us, our ruling of 68kg per seating position makes them exceed the set GVM for that van.

DOTARS allowing a vehicle in no matter what if converted to a camper is something that they have been trying to change for ages, it was meant for a full conversion into a camper not slap a portable stove and draws in the back and call it a camper. This is another loop hole the "car dealers" found to get a vehicle in that does not meet the SEVS requirements for the MA category.

Not a question directed at you Aaron but on the subject of Government Legislation killing the industry can someone give examples and there thoughts why DOTARS are the problem. Lots of people blame them (the rocket scientists) but don't give examples that actually stand up.

Whilst the debate rages over co-operation hows about the whole compliance thing of good in one state and no good in another ?

What of the warning for a person who buys a vehicle in good faith and of the understanding that compliance is , well , compliance, only to find that if they move interstate or sell the vehicle interstate they or the next purchaser may be up for another fat trip to the bank for a re-compliance , or whatever it's called , when they go to re-register / transfer the registration .

I'm on my second import (the first one bought and sold in QLD )and this is something I sure didn't know until I read a post on here about a car that had gone from QLD to SA , never did catch up on the eventual outcome though , I think it was pay up and shut up for the purchaser .

This realy helps resale values , ah hem , --or have I barked up a baloney tree ??

It would be rare seeing this issue arise unless it was something like the El Grand as the complainant was state level, NSW, QLD, VIC and now WA are addressing the issue. If it did come up and the vehicle was knocked back depending on why the workshop can be held responsible (no CRA's or Non Compliant lights which I have seen).

The issue for WA people is cars complied over east not complied correctly when they go for inspection and are knocked back for CAT's, Tyres, un-roadworthy things like ball joints and other general compliance requirements.

[BASHO]

Compliance via a RAWS is to ensure compliance with the ADR's, rather than state to state requirements. We have many vehicles complied in one state and registered in another without issues such as this.

If the vehicle were a pre 1989 model, then some states have different requirements for registration, but a SEVS vehicle complied by a RAW should not differ from state to state. THe only time I can see this becoming an issue, is if the compliance work were not done correctly or completely and this were picked up at registration for a vehicle being registered for the first time. I know that SA and WA RTAs check things far more stringently than Vicroads do when registering a vehicle for the first time, going over the consumer information notice step by step - whereas Vicroads assume the car has been complied, approved by Dotars and that's that. Unless the car were blatantly modified or dangerous, then all they do is check the paperwork.

But once the vehicle has been registered in one state, then the process becomes exactly the same as transferring ownership of locally delivered vehicles. IE - fill out transfer papers, get a RWC/blue slip or whatever passes for that in your state and then transfer ownership.

Thanks very much for that it has clarified my previously uninformed thinking , I wondered when I bought an Rx7 FC how on earth it had got through compliance , it certainly wouldn't have passed a competent roadworthy , but after following this topic all becomes startlingly more clear.

Just as a thought , how much would a good condition FTO with trip cost (approx) landed complied and registered ? I know there's as many models as fleas on a dog and that the last build was 98--I think--so a recomended on whatevermodel/year also would be good.

Just an off the top is fine please don't spend heaps of time on this as I've still got to flog my R34 GT-t.

[Import Monster]

Thanks very much for that it has clarified my previously uninformed thinking , I wondered when I bought an Rx7 FC how on earth it had got through compliance , it certainly wouldn't have passed a competent roadworthy , but after following this topic all becomes startlingly more clear.

Just as a thought , how much would a good condition FTO with trip cost (approx) landed complied and registered ? I know there's as many models as fleas on a dog and that the last build was 98--I think--so a recomended on whatevermodel/year also would be good.

Just an off the top is fine please don't spend heaps of time on this as I've still got to flog my R34 GT-t.

I'll send you a pm mate, as I think price discussion on a particular import gets away from the original intent of this thread

------

In relation to how I think Govt policy is more likely to ruin the import industry than the industry itself - there are a few reasons, but the main one is the Govt's ability and willingness to move the goal posts without notice and without justification. The most obvious instance of this being their recent change to the importation of modified pre 1988 model vehicles. For myself and many readers of this thread, the impact from this would be minimal, however there is an entire industry centred around the importation and sale of vehicles that is going to be badly hurt by this decision.

Where I sit in my office, there are half a dozen businesses within cooee all involved in importing American and european vehicles - all who are locked into leases, who have employees on the books, all who have significant investments in time and money into their entirely legitimate businesses that centre around importing these vehicles. This is just one industrial estate of hundreds around the country that are going to be hit by this. Plus the knock on effects of lost employment, lost revenues from the quarantine yards, the towing companies - all these businesses who will miss out on revenue as a result.

It's just one decision that can have a devastating knock on effect. It's practically knocked an entire subsection of the industry on the head. Or forced them to circumvent the new rules in some fashion.

If DOTARS enacted rules and changes which could have such a massive effect on the volume vehicle sellers, all hell would break loose and for good reason. Look at the Miner's reaction to the introduction of the Mining Super Profits Tax. It's the same kind of thing, just with different economies of scale. It's NOT ok to ruin anyone's livelihood with such rushed and arbitrary rule changes and that's precisely what has occurred here.

I was talking to a guy who brings in 7-8 40ft containers a month full of US cars through the same yard I bring my gear in to be checked and he's just gutted by this. Just as things were picking up for him after the disastrous exchange rates from Oct 08 through to mid last year, he cops this kick to the gut which was just as unexpected and senseless as the GEC!

The whole issue with the El Grand is another example. And as you say - because what the RTA were found to have done was not legal, they'll find a way to punish the industry as a whole. It's human nature to try to find a way around beauracracy, which is exactly what happened with the El Grand. It's not the intent, it's the letter of the law in this instance that counts. They found a way that satisfied the letter of the law, yet still allowed them to achieve their end goals legally. The decision to cease accepting engineers certs to register the vehicles as 6/7/8 seats was purely vindictive and I was very pleased to see it over turned.

Interesting discussions

[Mr Eps]

^^^^^what he said...

especially about how DoTaRS move and change their policies without reason or justification

i mean the pree 88 no mods rule... that's absolutely insane!!!

DOTARS is supposed to perform as a governing body of an industry. not the BANE OF IT'S EXISTENCE

to say that pre 88 can no longer be modified is one of many nails in the coffin of an entire industry!

not JUST some guy that builds hot rods in his back yard. but many legitimate business owners!!! AND THEIR FAMILIES. AND THEIR STAFF. they have RENT TO PAY and MORTGAGES and FOOD and the likes...

and DoTaRS just think hmmm i'm bored you know what? think i'll do THIS today.

there is NO reason for the rule changes. it's not playing fair on the businesses OR consumers. there isn't any justification for it or even alterior motive here... they were just bored n decided to close out a whole industry without reason or discussion.

and if you think they won't do it to the japanese import industry then - i don't even need to say how easy it is for them to just "wave their wand" and have them change the rules...

i'm happy to lobby and write letters and such to the minister regarding this however i will need all of your(s) help

after all. they are a public service !

[V37GT]

so what you guys saying is better to buy a car direct from a Japan Dealer rather than local dealer?? Please help I am looking th buy a Cube for my Girl Friend in 2 months thanks

[Nismo_Boy]

i mean the pree 88 no mods rule... that's absolutely insane!!!

What do they deem modified? Who is meant to be “checking” these cars, if they are at all? Quite frustrating for the consumers, in this case me – Not wishing to be burnt.

[DRIFTT]

The changes to pre Jan 1989 was only high lighted 2 weeks ago so since it's new it should be put to the side as I am talking over the last few years.

I understand why DOTARS change some of the rules, I am not saying they are correct just I can see why these rule changes happen.

It isn't about a DR30 or 65 Mustang having larger wheels or different suspension.

Types of vehicle conversions according to DOTARS.

Vehicle conversions can take different forms. One popular type of conversion is the production of replica cars from components of different makes or models. An example is the conversion of a Volkswagen Beetle into a replica Porsche.

Another popular type of conversion is the assembly of vehicles from different parts to create new types of vehicles. Typical examples include the conversion of a passenger sedan into a drag racing car or a hot rod.

Similarly, scooter frames are sometimes assembled with different engines and electrics to produce new types of scooters. Vehicles can also be modified to change their carrying capacity. An example is the conversion of a Hummer into a stretch Hummer.

The later date of conversion is taken to be the date of manufacture even where the parts used in the assembly are old or used.

[Mr Eps]

that has changed since it was first put published because the stretch hummer example was NOT there before...

and the "passenger car into a hot rod" example was also not included when i read it either

and - that's GREAT that they've told is what CAN'T be brought in - thanks a lot guys.... they've shown us what the NEGATIVE side of the law is - so what's the POSITIVE side to it...

ie... what CAN still be allowed?? usually - in a law amendedment, it should state

for instance

"volswagen bettles converted into hummers then converted into stretch hummers powered by VQ35DETT can not be brought it... on the contrary, modifications such as different wheels, brake upgrades, and a larger capactiy newer engine can still be approved

^^^we need to know what the contrary is so that it's a more transparent change to the rules because what they've said clears up nothing!

[Beer Baron]

want to know what is killing (or has already killed) the import industry in australia? it's f**kheads. simple. everyone loves to blame someone else. workshops blame brokers. dealers blame workshops. brokers blame dealers but in actual fact there are f**kheads in every corner of the industry just like there are in the rest of society. there are f**khead brokers with no clue ripping people off by doing bugger all for their fee, there are f**khead dealers who buy masses of cheap cars, screw everyone they deal with for that last cent, wind back kms and charge top dollar, there are f**khead compliance shops who overcharge for work not done, damage cars and just plain lie, there are the f**khead buyers who want every car as cheap as 'their cousin' can buy it for from his 'mate' and they pay late for work etc, there are f**khead legislators too who act without proper consultation with the general public.

The target that 'brokers killed the import industry' I think is off the mark. yes f**khead brokers damage the industry just like f**khead dealers, f**khead compliers and f**khead customers do. Brokers initially brought some good things to the industry. For years the vast majority of imports were imported, complied and sold by dealers with little to no transparency in the process. and a mark-up of 100% or more was not un-usual. People charging $40K for a R33 GTST and making $20K profit was what spawned the call for brokers who would guide people through the system for a flat rate, transparent fee. Had dealers been a bit less gung-ho with pricing in the late 90s and early 00's there would be bugger all people importing cars by any other method. Expecting $20K profit on a $40K car was just out of whack and when people found out about it (thanks to the internet) they were pissed off.

some great posts by import monster in here too.

[DRIFTT]

^^^we need to know what the contrary is so that it's a more transparent change to the rules because what they've said clears up nothing!

Simple answer is they are covering them self on everything now so no one can pull an El Grand and get around the legislation, one person's personal opinion decides what can come in and what cant. It wont be some one going "the rule is this so you have to allow it", now they are the rule. As stated before life in the industry for some people is getting harder and this is how they will do it.

In the new RAWS Guide when it comes down to "Fit and Proper Person Requirements" the last clause is a great one,

(g) the reputation of key personnel engaged by the applicant corporation.

So what there view on reputation could mean in the Automotive Industry is not stated but it can be enough to not be granted or lose your RAW.

want to know what is killing (or has already killed) the import industry in australia? it's f**kheads. simple. everyone loves to blame someone else. workshops blame brokers. dealers blame workshops. brokers blame dealers but in actual fact there are f**kheads in every corner of the industry just like there are in the rest of society. there are f**khead brokers with no clue ripping people off by doing bugger all for their fee, there are f**khead dealers who buy masses of cheap cars, screw everyone they deal with for that last cent, wind back kms and charge top dollar, there are f**khead compliance shops who overcharge for work not done, damage cars and just plain lie, there are the f**khead buyers who want every car as cheap as 'their cousin' can buy it for from his 'mate' and they pay late for work etc, there are f**khead legislators too who act without proper consultation with the general public.

Not a truer f**king word.

In an industry were in most states no one listens to you when problems like this happen nothing gets done, then of course the f**kheads just do what ever they want to do.

Big changes need to happen and they will.

[Beer Baron]

I should have also mentioned along with the f**kheads in every corner of the industry there are also some fantastic people in the industry. I have worked with amazing buyers/agents/exporters in japan who work like champions for small amounts of money and know cars like no one else. I've dealt with great car dealers in japan who find the most amazing cars and are actually honest in their impressions. I've dealt with dedicated brokers who perform fantastic work for their clients and go above and beyond their small fees. I've dealt with compliance shops that charge a fair honest price and do safe, prompt, appropriate work. I've even dealt with a dealer or 2 in aus that were ok....

so yeah whilst the f**kheads are wrecking things with their bullshit there are still great people that I am happy to work with.

[GTR-N1]

I should have also mentioned along with the f**kheads in every corner of the industry there are also some fantastic people in the industry. I have worked with amazing buyers/agents/exporters in japan who work like champions for small amounts of money and know cars like no one else. I've dealt with great car dealers in japan who find the most amazing cars and are actually honest in their impressions. I've dealt with dedicated brokers who perform fantastic work for their clients and go above and beyond their small fees. I've dealt with compliance shops that charge a fair honest price and do safe, prompt, appropriate work. I've even dealt with a dealer or 2 in aus that were ok....

so yeah whilst the f**kheads are wrecking things with their bullshit there are still great people that I am happy to work with.

^^^ This is a great Post to keep tucked in my pocket for secure contacts.

[Iron Chef]

I should have also mentioned along with the f**kheads in every corner of the industry there are also some fantastic people in the industry. I have worked with amazing buyers/agents/exporters in japan who work like champions for small amounts of money and know cars like no one else. I've dealt with great car dealers in japan who find the most amazing cars and are actually honest in their impressions. I've dealt with dedicated brokers who perform fantastic work for their clients and go above and beyond their small fees. I've dealt with compliance shops that charge a fair honest price and do safe, prompt, appropriate work. I've even dealt with a dealer or 2 in aus that were ok....

so yeah whilst the f**kheads are wrecking things with their bullshit there are still great people that I am happy to work with.

Have I told you lately that I love you?

+1 on the f*ckheads.

[Mr Eps]

speaking of fuckheads