E85 Fuel System Setup

[Birds]

mad, what duty cycle are you on at 285 with the 1000's?

dont' really see the point in going the 1000's when they are same price as 2000's. dont care if it uses more fuel or driveability etc isn't as good, its a track only car.

No idea but it's very safe. If you have plans for more power down the track then go nuts on the fuel system, I'm just saying it's way overkill for what your current target is. Keep in mind there's only so much you'll be able to put to the ground in your track car, it's all well and good to want infinite amounts of power down the track, but you'll probably be faster with less once you get to the limits of your chassis and suspension setup

[Risking]

Always ensure you have a filter post pump if your using any internally submerged type pump like the walbro/044 etc etc.

E85 is a corrosive fuel and the armature, brushes & commentator inside the 044 is very likely to corrode and flake away when the car sits around with fuel in it.

sealed pump gear pumps like the top shelf weldons etc are immune to the problem. Using tool steel gears and sealed motors to keep them dry from fuel.

044's will do fine obviously loads of people use them but do keep in mid what can corode.

Same an be said for alloy surge tanks.

Make sure it's a 5356 grade alloy or higher. Anything lower will produce scale inside the tank over time and obviously harm your pumps.

[R32 TT]

Risking, Is have the sure tank anodized a solution to using the higher grade alloy?

And how about the use of aluminium fuel line? Bad idea?

[sic200]

No idea but it's very safe. If you have plans for more power down the track then go nuts on the fuel system, I'm just saying it's way overkill for what your current target is. Keep in mind there's only so much you'll be able to put to the ground in your track car, it's all well and good to want infinite amounts of power down the track, but you'll probably be faster with less once you get to the limits of your chassis and suspension setup

allready has some of the best suspension gear in her already, tyres, aero etc. i see some of the time attack cars are making upwards of 400kw and dont really have a problem with traction. its gotta be able to spin 255 z221's , got weeks of traction yet hehe

risking... sounds like i'll be running a filter before and after the pumps. thanks for your advice

[Risking]

Anodizing won't help with a corosive fuel. You need to use an alloy that's got a high resistance to Corrosion.

5356 is typically refered to as a "marine grade" alloy and commony used.

Most of the decent alloy fuel tube I've seen is of good grade usually 6000 series and will be suitable.

I've had heaps of sales Guys come in trying to sell us Chinese surge tanks and what not.

We always ask them " oh is it corrosive resistant 4043 grade alloy your using" everytime they reply yeah of course it's 4043 and corrosive resistant blah blah. They have no idea.

Another thing to remember is alot of Chinese stuff and even some locally sold gear is 5356 material but the filler rod used to weld it is 4043. Nothing wrong with that and 4043 welds extremely well and is easy to control but the

welds will corrode over time.

My advise particularly for track cars which will sit around most days is to be cautious about the materials your fuel equipment is made from even more so if you can't actually talk to the manufacturer.

[zebra]

How about stainless Brad?

[Risking]

stainless grades vary like alloy ones do.

90% of my work concerns weight so we rarely use stainless when alloy is readily available to me.

honesty it's only ever 304 & 316 for exhaust systems etc that I use it for

I wouldn't want to comment on stainless grades for corrosive fuels as I really don't know.

[zebra]

fair enough, thanks, if I find anything out I will post up

[zebra]

This is relating to methanol may be of intrest to those who are better at chemisrty than me.

http://www.onepetro.org/mslib/servlet/onepetropreview?id=NACE-04240

to me it seems that the less water content the less corrosion to SS304 and SS316 but like I said it's a little over my head

edit - here is another little link, says stainless is the only material not to be attacked by methanol

http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs/171.263/vp-racing-fuel-

whether that applies to Ethanol I'm not sure

[zebra]

and a bit more science

Ethanol carries up to 0.003% vol.

acetic acid (CH3COOH + H2O). Organic

acids are corrosive in the presence

of moisture, but, in the pure state, do not

attack steel. However, plastic and rubber

are vulnerable.1 The acid-forming molecules

react with water molecules to create

hydrogen ions, which attach to the

available electrons on the oxygen atom

of water.

source

http://www.gie.com/about_us/images_for_the_news/Ramesh%20Singh%20-%20NACE%20MP%20-%20May%202009%20-Ethanol%20Corrosion%20-1.pdf

[R32 TT]

Anodizing won't help with a corosive fuel. You need to use an alloy that's got a high resistance to Corrosion.

5356 is typically refered to as a "marine grade" alloy and commony used.

Most of the decent alloy fuel tube I've seen is of good grade usually 6000 series and will be suitable.

I've had heaps of sales Guys come in trying to sell us Chinese surge tanks and what not.

We always ask them " oh is it corrosive resistant 4043 grade alloy your using" everytime they reply yeah of course it's 4043 and corrosive resistant blah blah. They have no idea.

Another thing to remember is alot of Chinese stuff and even some locally sold gear is 5356 material but the filler rod used to weld it is 4043. Nothing wrong with that and 4043 welds extremely well and is easy to control but the

welds will corrode over time.

My advise particularly for track cars which will sit around most days is to be cautious about the materials your fuel equipment is made from even more so if you can't actually talk to the manufacturer.

Excellent info, thanks Brad, I really wasn't aware of all that. I'll have to do some digging up on this for my surge tank being made. Thanks.

[boostn0199]

Anodizing won't help with a corosive fuel. You need to use an alloy that's got a high resistance to Corrosion.

5356 is typically refered to as a "marine grade" alloy and commony used.

Most of the decent alloy fuel tube I've seen is of good grade usually 6000 series and will be suitable.

I've had heaps of sales Guys come in trying to sell us Chinese surge tanks and what not.

We always ask them " oh is it corrosive resistant 4043 grade alloy your using" everytime they reply yeah of course it's 4043 and corrosive resistant blah blah. They have no idea.

Another thing to remember is alot of Chinese stuff and even some locally sold gear is 5356 material but the filler rod used to weld it is 4043. Nothing wrong with that and 4043 welds extremely well and is easy to control but the

welds will corrode over time.

My advise particularly for track cars which will sit around most days is to be cautious about the materials your fuel equipment is made from even more so if you can't actually talk to the manufacturer.

Interesting information you wouldnt happen to know what grade aftermarket industries surge tanks are? Also when you say track cars sitting around for most of the time, what time frame are you talking about without starting the car for it to be in the zone of potentially becoming an issue for the pump and surge tank. I usually start my track car once a week and let it run for 20min or so to circulate the fuel and oil.

[Risking]

Excellent info, thanks Brad, I really wasn't aware of all that. I'll have to do some digging up on this for my surge tank being made. Thanks.

Definitely ensure your getting it made from suitable materials.

I always make my customers aware of the materials we are using.

I've had some teams ask to actually see the filler rods I weld with to ensure it is what it is.

I don't think it's unreasonable either.

[Risking]

Interesting information you wouldnt happen to know what grade aftermarket industries surge tanks are? Also when you say track cars sitting around for most of the time, what time frame are you talking about without starting the car for it to be in the zone of potentially becoming an issue for the pump and surge tank. I usually start my track car once a week and let it run for 20min or so to circulate the fuel and

oil.

I honestly have no idea what Ai have fabricated them from.

I've done some testing with earls recently using the V8 sucrogen fuel.

We left sucrogen sitting in a few different tanks from a couple of different grades.

Some were full and pressurized some half empty etc.

They were all cut open after a month and corrosion was present in some of them.

It wasn't to the point of being scale but it was clearly corroded.

I'm now fabricating a range of surge tanks exclusively for earls Australia that are all ethanol/methanol safe.

We know they are good to go but you'd have to check with your particular brand to see what they say.