Stagea Suspension

[Sydneykid]

Fitted the front Bilsteins on Sunday, but ran out of time to do the rears as I had to help the guys pack up for next weekend's interstate race meeting. So I have been driving it around for 3 days with the Bilsteins in the front and the worn out standard shocks in the rear. To enable some height adjustbility, I machined a few extra circlip grooves in the Bilstein shock bodies on the lathe on Saturday.

A comparison of the spring seat positions, this one proved ot be a little low so i went up one groove.

I lowered the front 20 mm and it now sits around 10 mm lower in the front than the rear (measured at the sills). The front springs are 165 lbs per inch and have a lot of preload, necessary to hold up the considerable front end weight. This means spring compressors are essential.

I also had to shorten the bump stops to gain back the lost movement.

The handling improvement is sure noticeable, it has a lot more front end grip, but the ride is very strange. The bouncing rear is a sharp contrast to the controlled front, and it is not comfortable. I think I have neck whiplash, so I will stick the rear Bilsteins in tonight, if time allows:cheers:

Edited February 25, 2008 by Sydneykid

[Sydneykid]

I have a little ongoing test for the Stagea handling improvements. One of my heighbours has a Forrester GT manual (exhaust & boost), we both leave for work at similar times and travel the local winding road which has 15 corners in 1 km. When I first got the Stagea I couldn't keep up, he would gradually get away no matter how hard I pushed. When I put the stabiliser bars on I could just hang on, with a bit of effort. He was impressed. I upped the boost last week (to 0.7 bar) and I could then pull up to him on acceleration between the corners. This morning, with the Bilsteins in, he was slowing me up in some of the corners. He was mightly impressed.

Next week, if we meet up, I will have the rear Bilsteins in and the A/F ratios tuned, so I will lead for the first time and see if he can keep up.

[Sydneykid]

While I was fitting the rear Bilsteins, I thought I would take some pictures of the rear suspension and show the camber and toe adjusters.

In this picture of the RHS rear suspension, the camber adjuster is on the inner end of the upper control arm and the toe adjuster is on the inner end of the tie rod. Note the yellow and white factory marks near the toe adjuster.

This is closer shot of the LHS rear camber adjuster, it is is the mid position as shown by the hole being verticle. I wanted less negative camber as ours had almost 1 degree. Full adjustment brought that down to 0.25 degree. That should improve the rear tyre wear and increase the traction.

Rotating the adjuster so that the hole (in the wide side of the washer) is towards the wheel means more negative camber. Rotating it so the hole is towards the diff means less negative camber. Having the hole on the bottom means that you get more change to negative camber as the rear end squats (under acceleration). Having the hole to the top means less change to negative camber as the rear end squats.

Hope that is of some help.

Edited February 25, 2008 by Sydneykid

[Gary1]

Looks good SK,

How did everything go, did it improve the cars handling enough for you? I hope you are pleased with the results.

Cheers

Gary

[Sydneykid]

Looks good SK,

How did everything go, did it improve the cars handling enough for you?  I hope you are pleased with the results.

Cheers

Gary

Hi Gary, yep the Bilsteins were a huge improvement over the standard shocks, that were also well past their use by date. I just have to add some more caster (adj radius rod bushes) and it will be perfect. We have a 1200 k run to do next weekend with a bit of a load in it, so that will test it out.

The fronts, being brand new, took a few days to settle in whereas the rears, being lightly used, were spot on straight away. For my purposes I don't think I would want to go much higher in the spring rate than standard. It already has 165 lbs per inch in the front, which is very high for a family waggon.

[Gary1]

Excellent,...

[burkey22]

I apologise if you've alraedy mentioned it. But where do buy a set of shocks like yours SK?

[Sydneykid]

I apologise if you've alraedy mentioned it. But where do buy a set of shocks like yours SK?

Hi burkey, I actually got this particular set from Gary, he only had them for few weeks, the fronts were brand new. I would usually buy Bilsteins from Heasmans, the Australian agents. UAS also sell them, and I think Autospeed are the agents for Heasmans in Tas, maybe check with them first. Prices do vary a bit, so shop around. PM me if you need more info.

[michaeljquinn]

Hi burkey, I actually got this particular set from Gary, he only had them for few weeks, the fronts were brand new.  I would usually buy Bilsteins from Heasmans, the Australian agents.  UAS also sell them, and I think Autospeed are the agents for Heasmans in Tas, maybe check with them first.  Prices do vary a bit, so shop around.  PM me if you need more info.

Great Info SK

Went to a suspension guy in Thomastown in vic, he seems to think the konis are a

better shock than the bilsteins (he does a lot of skylines) for set & forget. He quoted around 1300 for all 4, is this a good price ??. I respect your opinion, and the advantage we have is that us lucky stagea owners can talk to some who obviously knows their stuff really well (ie SK), i dont want to be the first stagea owner with konis !!

thanks heaps

[Jay95R33]

G'day SK,

Just on cutting the grooves into the shock body so you can do custom heights etc.. Do you have any close up's of the grooves? How deep are the grooves and are the spring seats that we see in the pics above the ones that come with the shocks ??

I'm just wondering if this is something anyone can do if they order a set of these shocks.

Cheers

J

[chadders180]

michaeljquinn,

If you want my opinion, i have had both Koni's and Bilstiens and the Bilstiens were a better shock. They lasted longer, gave a better ride, and didn't have any problems. The Koni's i had one gave up the ghost about 3 months after install, they blew a seal and were no good. Although this only happened to one of the four i thought it was dissapointing. The replacement was not real quick in coming either.

Cheers

Gary

[Gary1]

michaeljquinn,

If you would like some information. I have had both Koni's and Bilstiens in the past. I have better results with Bilstiens, more reliability with Bilstiens. The last set of Koni's i had didn't last long before one of the struts started to leak and therefore lose preasure.

Just my opinion, do withit what you will.

Cheers

Gary

[Sydneykid]

G'day SK,

Just on cutting the grooves into the shock body so you can do custom heights etc..  Do you have any close up's of the grooves?  How deep are the grooves and are the spring seats that we see in the pics above the ones that come with the shocks ??

I'm just wondering if this is something anyone can do if they order a set of these shocks.

Cheers

J

Hi J, the circlip grooves are the same dimensions as the standard ones (1.5mm wide by 0.6 mm deep). The springs seats are the new generation, standard Bilstein ones. Most popular Bilsteins come with the alloy seats now.

If you have access to a lathe then you can easily do it, I am no machinist and it took me about an hour to do all 4. You do need to have the right tool for the job, being 1.5 mm wide. That is a common size, many piston rings are 1.5mm, so we had a couple in the machine shop. I know Whiteline will machine extra grooves if you buy the Bilsteins from them, they charge ~$100 or so for a full set of grooves on 4 shocks. I think Heasmans (the Australian Bilstein agents) do the same.

Hope that helps:cheers:

[Sydneykid]

Great Info SK

Went to a suspension guy in Thomastown in vic, he seems to think the konis are a  

better shock than the bilsteins (he does a lot of skylines) for set & forget.  He quoted around 1300 for all 4, is this a good price ??.  I respect your opinion, and the advantage we have is that us lucky stagea owners can talk to some who obviously knows their stuff really well (ie SK), i dont want to be the first stagea owner with konis !!

thanks heaps

Hi Michael, I have/have had a large number of cars with Konis, personally I have never had a problem. One of our cars (not a Skyline) has Konis in it and they are fantastic. On that car (and ones like it), I would use Konis over Bilsteins every time.

But (there is always as but) Skylines are very heavy and the mono tube design of the Bilsteins gives a greater piston area than the Konis. This means better damping capacity, in that more oil goes through the valves for the same amount of suspension movement. Plus, being monotube, there is more oil inside the damper, so they don't overheat as quickly.

As usual, it boils down to horses for courses and the Bilstein design is simply better for a Skyline in my opinion.

PS; $1300 fitted with a four wheel alignment is an OK price, not fantastic but OK.

[tigerleo62]

Hi SK - did you record the bilstein part numbers? If so, could you post them here?

[Burns]

I have only had mine a few days now and I am already trying to work out the best way to get it setup to my liking. I have Tein HA coilovers in mine that are just a bit too hard and low for my liking with stock everything else. :headbang:

I have a Whiteline works kit on my R33 GTSt 4 door that is perfect. Not too hard not to soft, very comfortable, nice and low but not too low. It gives great feedback and makes the handling very predictable.

I would like to give the Stagea the same characteristics as my R33 as far as possible and use as many of the bits I have on the R33 as I can.

The GTSt kit uses BNF24Z 24mm front sway bar and BNR11Z 22mm rear sway bar VS the BNF27Z front and BNR11XZ rear for the GTR and recommended by SK. As far as I can tell they are both exactly the same dimensions but the GTR bars have Z for heavy duty in the part number, I am guessing they are just made out of a slightly stiffer material.

Am I correct in this assumption and will the GTS bars be adequate on the Stagea if set on their stiffest setting?

Will the valuing in the rear R33 GTSt Bilstens be suitable in the Stagea if used with the appropriately harder spring weight and what should this spring weight be?

Can the front R33 GTSt Bilstens be made to fit in the Stagea and will their valving be suitable if used with Whitline GTR springs?

Its probably not worth swapping the caster and camber bushes over so I will probably just get a new front caster kit and rear camber kit then an alignment and I should be right.

If I am unable to get the Bilstens to fit or their valving is not suitable for the additional weight and higher spring weights of the Stagea what spring weights should I get to fit to the Teni coilovers? Or will increasing their height also make them softer?

My main complaint about the Stagea is the excessively light steering and the lack of feel and feedback it gives. Not only is it too light it does not seem to self center as well as the skyline.

Does the Stagea run a different steering rack etc or is this feel just given by its lack of castor and bigger steering wheel. Will a caster kit or adjustable caster bars fix this or is more required?

[Sydneykid]

Quite few questions there Burns, I will try and snwer them...

Mine has the 24 mm adjustable front bar and 22 mm adjustable rear bar. The Whiteline codes;

B = stabiliser bar

N = Nissan

F = Front

R = Rear

X = heavy duty

XX = extra heavy duty

Z = adjustable

The diameter of the bar determines the rate, the material they are made off is all exactly the same (good quality Australian spring steel).

The R33GTST rear Bilsteins seem to be perfectly OK on the Stagea. The front Bilsteins on mine are R33GTR, I don't think the R33GTST Bilsteins will handle the extra weight and spring rate of the Stagea. Give Heasmans a call and talk to Allan, they have valving specs and may be able to clarify.

The Stagea rear springs are unique in free height and rate. I don't think R33GTST or GTR would be suitable. The front springs are the same as R33GTR, R33GTST springs are too soft and short and can't handle the weight.

Extra caster makes a heap of difference, like a GTR, Stageas (being 4wd) have a different front subframe and location to GTST's (being 2wd). Due to drive shaft angles they don't have the same amount of caster as a GTST. Adjustable caster bushes are an inexpensive and good solution. They do make big difference in both static (on the wheel aligner) and dynamic (the bushes don't deform as much) caster.

I was able to take out the excessive rear camber with the standard adjusters (refer previously posted pictures), but mine is only lowered to 365 mm (centre of wheeel to guard). If you go more than that, you will most likely need at least one set of rear adjustable upper control arm bushes.

I hope that answered all of your questions:cheers:

[Burns]

Thanks SK I think that covered most of it.

Mine is sitting at 325mm rear and 340mm front with the rear camber adjusters as far out as they can go.

I think I will adjust it to 345mm front and rear (The same hight as the Whiteline GTSt kit).

What way do you need to wind the adjusters to make it higher up or down on the shock body? and will adjusting them to sit higher make it any softer?

What way do you turn the damper adjuster clickers on the top of the coilovers to increase and decrees dampening?

I think I will try to get the Teni’s working for me if I can before lashing out for Bilsteins.

[Gary2]

Thanks a lot for all this info guys but another ? is the comfort zone. Did these mods harden up the suspension as I want to go the Bilsteins/swaybar route but I do need to keep the soft ride but I want it to be a bit lower to the ground.

Any ideas ?

Thanks

[Sydneykid]

Thanks SK I think that covered most of it.  

Mine is sitting at 325mm rear and 340mm front with the rear camber adjusters as far out as they can go.

I think I will adjust it to 345mm front and rear (The same hight as the Whiteline GTSt  kit).  

That's still pretty low for a 1650 kg waggon.

What way do you need to wind the adjusters  to make it higher up or down on the shock body? and will adjusting them to sit higher make it any softer?

Anticlockwise winds up the bottom spring seats and raises the car.

What way do you turn the damper adjuster clickers on the top of the coilovers to increase and decrees dampening?  

Clockwise is harder.

I think I will try to get the Teni’s working for me if I can before lashing out for Bilsteins.

The Tein shocks are usually not too bad, but the spring rates are way too high.

Hope that helps:cheers: