RICE RACING

map/tip will still be AIDS though?

^ You may need the KGB or CIA to do some waterboarding cause your extrapolation is way incorrect Run allot more over speed than above estimate, Geoff knows :) will leave it at that, but again only possible with LR control methods.

True top end motorsports ECU like Life Racing, Pectel/Cosworth, Bosch....... don't use Ve derived 'guesses', but that is another topic What I have been meaning to fit up (but its a low priority to be totally honest with you) is a calibrated flow meter onto the turbocharger inlet pipe, then and only then will you be able to show mass flow rates and back work Ve, if you are guessing/doing it estimated fuel mass and Lambda sensors then you are mental LOL. Always personally found a direct measure is far more useful than an indirect guess.

MAP for scat, Yeah I left some bits out as too many copy (sorry about that) but you can see the obvious I was talking about. The map/tip is ugly on this set up for sure to the point that the piston engine does not make the normal 13% to 15% extra power (on equivalent displacement metric) v's the 13B rotary when using this turbo, its just too small basically.

Keep in mind, its such a high flow engine that even though the 'boost' is moderate, its way off to the right of the map, as turbine is in over speed condition from 6950 engine rpm! I have blanked out the specifics of maximum speed at peak power engine speed, motor revs are restricted only cause of the limitations of the turbocharger. Thankfully we use the best ECU designed for just this application, so we can run very accurately all the time to the absolute critical speed limit of the EFR9180... I am amazed how long it has lasted to be honest as its really being pushed well out of its comfort zone.

Yeah all good points. The biggest thing I see is the map/tip is just not good enough (especially in single application on the 9180) the turbine is just too small/poor flowing, personally don't see an issue with the compressor side. Great match at maximum output for maybe a > 2.4lt engine, not so much on the two examples I gave above, but its all relative, when you have road cars with the breadth of power band (especially on a 13B engine) that shits on everything else and it accelerates at 0.42+G @ 200kph (compare a 700bhp V8 taxi which does 0.32G or so at same velocity) it makes you wonder why we chase constantly more and more. My personal view these days, is if you can make 20 hours on load (~ 2000 hours road running) or 1% of time at racing duty then you have a combination worthy of talking about currently working through this on multiple types of vehicles! all EFR equipped doing a 9174 on a 2.3 AMS EVO engine ready in next few weeks, all with the same level of electronics and data analysis so can keep you updated

Anything near 8k rpm or above for the below Piston engine of 3lt with decent air flow (ported head, decent cams, valves etc) Rotary engine (13B) with street porting We already have over my prescribed map/tip ratio, keep in mind I do the calibration on the GTR with this directly inputted into the ECU fuel calculation so I can physically see the negative effects of it, in the rotary its built into the main fuel table but I see it in my spread sheet where I derive the air flow through the engine myself. Being a two stroke type engine with 1/3rd more exposure to the negative effects of this going to high the wankel suffers more as is to be expected. All this is reflected if you look back at a basic metric I use. BHP/Lt/Bar To give you an idea on a sub 9,000rpm engine its not uncommon with a well matched turbo and specifically turbine to have 110bhpbhp/lt/bar (given you are using proper level of excess fuel and spark advance). Any time you are under this, then its a pure indicator of an insufficient turbine section. It is not uncommon to liberate 20% power gains by using a more appropriate turbocharger, but as always its a balance to response and peak power. Good engines will be around 125 to 130bhp level and reciprocating with some more revs its easy to be as high as 150bhp/lt/bar. No way in f**k you can do this with current EFR range, unless going to twins, but there is another member on here who I do some consulting for and they are around the 90 to 100 mark as well on a twin EFR set up, so make of that what you will As you say sfa people have the 'data' let alone the ability to quantify nor standardize the results so good luck relying on others :) best if you do it yourself as we do I find.

Here is a little comparison of vehicular performance pulled of Aquamist forum for some context, both EFR9180 equipped.

Issue with the 9180 is the turbine flow not being enough, though how much power do you want, always wanting more!

Here is what we use. http://www.compsystems.com.au/index.php/store/electronics/engine-control/electronic-throttle-control

Here is some tests of a new set of EGT probes before going out to a customer. You can reference these to the color chart I posted, dark orange at the open junction.

I have a spare (Turbo, Tial housing + Tial 60mm gate) all new, if you are interested :) pm me.

Yeah been around them too long (since 1995) first T04 set up. My current combo is a BW369SXE and Tial V'Band single entry housing, no gaskets or dividers to get chewed, have a great pic of one housing where the whole center divider was eroded away from thermal fatigue... split pulse is a nice idea but shite in practice I found.

Were nuts/bolts loose (on that side) as result of gasket missing? Either way end result is homo :(

It not an issue of bolt clamp loss rather the material distorts (on the manifold) and the turbine housing to a lesser degree, then its game over. I put above a worst case scenario and simple color chart shows that on the flat flange area the temps you can use an aviation product (I have worked with it to 750 deg C) on outer of flange!) typically this never gets over 550 deg C as its transferring allot of heat by that time to the surrounding engine bay air. The whole problem though starts at the center divider where there is no/little chance for heat transfer and its more RAPE than Mr Fritzle family fun times.

Here is a graphic example of the problems associated, it starts at the divider (where there is lack of clamping) and this diminishes over time significantly as this part of the manifold distorts and falls away so to speak, then its a slippery slope to turbo hell. Ironically its more of a problem in road cars that run all the time at 1.000 Lambda and non optimized ignition settings, remember 98% of the time in a street car literally is spent here, and EGT can get very high. The secret is run the car with a bit of excess fuel here to cool the exhaust and you will increase durability 10 fold.

Happens on rotaries allot, typically it flows like this. Over time, even on metal gasket the 'pre load' drops with many thermal cycles distorting the flanges/gaskets, then as a result there is hot gasses leaking, which in turn then break down the barriers that isolate the heat away from even a high rate stainless or Inconel gasket what then ensues is 'torching' of the said gasket and it falls into the turbo. Starts mostly at the center divider as this part takes much more of the heat stress as its got a far longer path to reject the said heat to the outer walls of the mainfold............. anyway end result is a total cluster f**k as above. This is why I dont use any gaskets personally and only smear on a thin layer of a special product I get in for others used in aviation. Fuchs 762

36-2 with VR on crank here and HALL on phase (cam) single finger, is faultless where as earlier trials especially on action on limiters (rpm limit especially) would cause lots of harmonics in cam belt and poor signal pattern on cam.

I could put up if owner allows the end effect on knock and ign advance, we are talking 'allot' at 8000rpm and on-wards. You also see it graphically when trying to run a VR sensor on a single tooth on the cam, it can trigger errors due to the slap in the belt (again if your ECU reports this?), its one of the easiest way just do a sync capture and check the wave pattern, it is horrendous ! So you go from running maybe your target ign timing on one cylinder at one cycle and could be out multiple crank degrees on another cycle, and again on a top quality knock control system you will see this as we did, change out the ghetto trigger system and much more safety and much more power is to be had

Problem is they don't make a larger one (9180) and the twins is 'aids' spec, so you ironically are better off with other brands at high power and especially if you want to use full rpm of your engine. The EFR's are really weird that way irrespective of what the charts say, they choke engines, seen it on all types too.

Just wanted to say personally I think these turbo's are bit 'homo' in regards to the specific power they put out, just my experience v's the many others I have used. IE: get brand Lez Beane V's EFR on same boost and they will make considerably less power, and also the rpm (engine) is less too. Nothing scientific to add here its just what I have seen first hand.

Anyone using the cam for crank position is either lazy or a rookie. When using an ECU with quality knock control you will see this first hand. HALL sensor is only ever used on phase single tooth as its more applicable here for obvious reasons. Real world using 36-2 on crank with VR sensor you reliably use much more correct ignition timing at 8000+rpm than any cam based 'sloppy' system.

Not a long term proposition (for engine life), currently doing a durability run on 9180 (~1000bhp) with 3.4. Aiming for 20 hours, which is a topic not discussed or understood by most be it by deception or ignorance?. The higher rpm required for twins along with associated exponential drop in engine life running it this way means we pretty much shit canned the idea

Here is 9180 on 13B street port engine (the video I put up of it on idle a page or so back). Turbo is max response set up with adequate power range (~700bhp engine), makes for a fast car in a RX7 weight/size. Power band is good, but it can only do so much, 120k turbo speed on this one, we have run higher on other cars though. Its got a nice spread of power and will do 100 to 200kph in one gear in under 5 seconds. I also include data on phase + anti phase control, we can run a bit more boost if required, and no drop off to 9000rpm (beauty of an advanced ECU).