RICE RACING

All good ? I just put up info (if it helps). Road cars 99% of the time are driven on road, if its a racing car different story. Many great not so old racing cars came out with syncro trans ? especially endurance cars. Just for the reason of durability. You can flat shift syncro trans and compared to a H pattern dog box the differences are minor too ? very minor in lost time.

Anyway without abusing you we can compare real information ? Below is why I say a syncro is more than fine, there is little to no mechanical stess and they are more than acceptable to keep up with real road engines levels of inertia (to match speeds without undue stresses being applied to gearbox parts). This is on an up shift, I can give you any detail you want Roger. 260ms is NOT slow at all. And I have heaps of data on a dog trans where you dont just look at the gear position time off the barrel in sequential but rather you look at the time on off accel, and its not the quantum leap some dubious makers and groupies would have you believe ? regardless my point it in the dog box you are forcing the engine to slow down or speed up (on a down shift) is this is the catastrophic BANG! you hear each time it shifts, the dog edges slamming against each other and the amount of energy is what crack them and causes you to throw the kunts in the bin after a set amount of time. A road car with normal flywheel and inertia involved means I say again that dog engagement is only for wankers ? cause even with electronic flat shift as pictured the engine cant decelerate fast enough to reduce this miss match, syncro helps, dog just molests its way in,to the detriment of durability, let alone common sense which it seems is not so common LOL.

Any CLOWN can change down on a dog box, only a real driver can do it on a syncro box without breaking it ? Do you even know why crack testing is done on a dog ? do you know the amount of shock loading that happens ? and why the kunts are thrown in the bin after a certain amount of hours use ? Garbage set up for the street, only a homo would fit one, good luck racing your car and justifying to yourself that you need it lol....

You obviously are emotional and cant comprehend what I wrote Roger. For the street a dog box is just for wankers, they are not required nor needed ? and they never last as long as a syncro set up. The amount of 'time' you loose on a syncro shift does not make up for the total head f**k/maintenance nightmare and total abuse to your car that a dog box is. Let alone looking like a total clown in a car that sounds like you are driving in reverse gear everywhere. Congrats to you mate.

OS is very strong, that pictured 'kit' is run in this car, done multiple hours of full power and good as gold. Other miss designed dog box kits by comparison break/strip gears with 200+bhp less power on EFR7670's LOL. http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/SeriesVIII_Charles.htm They shift fast enough and are maintenance free, dog engagement really is for kunts who don't know how to drive honestly. Learn how to double de clutch (proper rev match) and you will never ever break a syncro.

What about Albins? This is my box (Mazda) getting made by them. I used to get OS Giken (think Quaife makes their parts?) but the '5 speed kit' from them came with SFA compared to Albins. My Albins 5 speed kit OS Giken 5 speed kit, which is actually 3.5 speed kit LOL, 4th is not a gear, and 5th utilizes OE extension housing pair.

ECU words from the master, pay attention !

multi million dollar car and using shonky turbo's with china sourced turbine wheels, compressor covers, and other misc parts.... gold. Obviously does not give a f**k about compressor maps or engineering of those items ?

some good ECU capability knowledge here for the OP .....

It's just like an episode of Bold and the Beautiful, except there are no hot chicks.

Not Halaltech but description in the interests of learning/teaching.

Then there is this (EFR in video lol) makes me want to 'slap' a brain dead horse. Kinda makes all the shit we talk about (and do) look very ****ed.

The above nugget: I got told by the engine builder it does 'nearly 1000bhp' on just over 2 bar boost (no nos), which lets say is 2.1 bar or 3.1 absolute (sea level) which is normal given his F1 turbo back ground > works out to 134bhp/lt/bar........ and they kept that ~1000bhp all the way to the top too. FORD RS200 - TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION Engine Geoff Page Racing 2,400cc Inline 4 cylinder Ford Cosworth BDTE racing engine. Mid-mounted longitudinally. Cylinder head: DOHC 16 valve. Compression ratio: 8:1 Turbocharger: Prototype Garrett altitude compressor. Max boost pressure = 35 psi Management: LIFE F88 Fuel: 116 octane race fuel Max Power: 950 bhp (PS-DIN) @ 8,000 rpm Max Torque: 750 lbs ft @ 5,500 rpm Power booster: 70 litres of Nitrous Oxide gas gives a boost equivalent to 3 minutes at: Max Power: 1,150 bhp (PS-DIN) @ 8,000 rpm Max Torque: 850 lbs ft @ 5,500 rpm Engine builder Geoff Page was involved with the BDT-E engines from the start in 1987 and has assembled the engines for almost all the competition RS200s ever built. There are only a handful of specialists in the world who can build these engines, and Geoff is the best of the best. He built the engine and serviced the Mach 2 Racing RS200 that was driven by Stig Blomqvist in the 2002 and 2004 Pikes Peak Hillclimb. From that experience he knew that to beat the elusive 10 minute barrier he would need to find more power and find a solution to the power loss at high altitude. The 2009 engine has greater capacity at 2,400 cc, the Garrett prototype turbo delivers more boost with greater control at different altitudes and the LIFE ECU is better able to adjust the engine management settings to cope with variable air pressure. This combination with high octane racing fuel delivers 950 horsepower. Finally, 70 litres of Nitrous Oxide gas boosts the power output to 1,150 horsepower for the equivalent of three minutes.

Lith, Its a multi faceted problem. mapTIP too high Phase and Anti Phase control limited (read too high TIP) Turbine overspeed Comp map (engine dependent) out of flow to right so heats up air allot Get cars to a level of performance that is kick arse (sea level) then there is little to no margin unless you are going up molehills (sub 300 meters!). Then have to dial back power to keep everything within spec. For my own car I specified a 369SXE with a larger Tial rear housing just for these reasons, should cover me up to Mount Kosciuszko, just need to find some speed rated snow chains LOL :)

Have to run something like this lol, same power at top of hill as at the bottom

^ Lith and GTSBoy, Bit for me :) mostly for a few USA customers who run at very high altitudes. Would not call it a 'race track' as such lol or a sanctioned event hahaha. But yes already at limits at sea level, and don't see it have any capacity to work without limiting power (which is a sad state of affairs given you are turbocharged, defeats the purpose). Basically run out of capacity on a single EFR on multiple types tried, 4cyl, 6cl, 2 rotor. OR accept that power will fall off like it does for NA shit boxes.

One topic not debated/considered is available margins of safety and how they can be molested. I am faced with this now and part of the reason either to go twins or just use a 'shittier turbo' choice like the 369SXE.... Say for example you want to make ~850bhp at sea level, but also want to do this at 1000 meters, lets say running a constant map of ~3500mB. The limits I find on a single EFR is that you don't have the flexibility to use or extend way past the PR.. IE: ~3.8 to ~5.2, already finding yourself at/near turbine speed limits, where as the 'dirty old' inconel wheels don't have the "**** I will snap off at random if you over stress me issues" Not some thing most think about due to geography maybe? or happy to loose power with altitude? not sure?

They way I talk is different to other kunts :) but the voltage and associated threshold is usually listed as a percentage of saturation, which is correlated to the voltage out of the unit. When you test it and smash the kunt *engine-NOT the sensor!* with a hammer :) you can easily get over the voltage you mention. This then is where you set your gain value to being the knock sensor into a workable range on your specific ECU and then to differentiate the normal noise of the engine (proportional to BMEP and rpm)......... it gets complex but that is it, you tailor find the natural frequency of the system (not by internet calculators or multiple frequency tests like some ECU makers suggest!) but rather you test it on the engine (not hard to do as I am a dumb kunt and I worked it out myself). Then adjust for normal operation and I have not found an engine yet that cant be set up correctly without the need for any third party knock devices, assuming you know what you are doing. Some engines (rotaries which I know better than most, especially as we run the knock limited all the time) will not tolerate much detonation so you have to know what you are doing. 4cyl engines which are 'noisy' are hard to set up right. Using generic wide range knock sensors I don't recommend, I wont divulge why (as too many stalkers read everything I put up lol) but I will say that the right tool for the job is usually the best practice :) Final note is if you are using 'audible knock tools as validation' then you are a rookie, don't hand out advice to others please LOL I talk more about that here below. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=42 RICE RACING Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Utopia Posts: 429 Re: RICESP Water Injected RX7 It's all about knock control, running the engine to its limit (even a 100% standard delivered engine) when I was proving this system. Water Injection, and a real not paper/internetz professional control box, and a person with a brain are all that is required. Seems simple but these days ironically it's harder than ever (too much wrong advice from nobodies on everything from shit electronics choices onwards) go figure! FYI human reaction time to audio stimulus is around 0.170 seconds, given below example of 0.0066 seconds per cycle event, this means the rotary engine will knock>detonate at least 25 times before you lift your foot off the accelerator LOL "retarded" in every sense of the word, love the internetz education handed out by educatorz/trainerz/tutorz LOLZ Anyway onto real qualified information: It's easy with the right electronics/hardware/software, to not only see what is happening, but also manage it (100% stock standard 'fragile' rotary engine) running it to its knock limits all of the time in an active manner, and letting the ECU manage the spark timing. Counter to the 'shit advice' that proliferates the internetz blogs etc, this is the preferred way, counter to their claims of doom and gloom, ironically its opposite (wow surprise!) if you are NOT running a Life Racing ECU (set up correctly) you will have zero hope of relying on your new found 'pay to play' derived 'knowledge' since the nature of knock by the many variables that cause it means you have to run so far away from peak performance that you will either melt your turbine, have poor specific power, poorer fuel specific fuel consumption, and far less durability all rolled into one! p.s Would love to put up a jizzillion pages of information, but learned long ago too many copy it so as its all current technology stuff reserved only for the smart/loyal ones who know how to tell FACT from FICTION Hmmmm, Really need to put up another graph of flat shift full throttle cuts example, with anti lag, and Traction Control!!! which some seem to get LINK'd to the wrong advice again LOL......... __________________

Ummm see below of how a 'knock sensor' works. I took this reading on an actual engine block (in the right location) to determine the natural frequency which equated 100% to the factory OEM SAE paper listing the same for the given engine type. Also shown for your benefit is the 'voltage' typically seen on an acceleration sensor or microphone which is what some call it. Not sure if this input is going to help the OP though? :)

Have not used those twins yet, but on 3.15 Tomei engine a 9180 is a bit small of a turbo, lots of posts about it here if you scan back. But that is all relative to how much power you are wanting to run (read boost). The large capacity engine as Geoff said above is really not meant for a 3L and over set up assuming you are breathing right and using 8k+rpm, ~100bhp/lt/bar as your guide. If you don't care to search back in short what I found is that the engine response is shit (on the inline 6cyl) and that is on a 1.05AR, but its also horsepower limited to ~1000bhp (max 1070bhp recorded) what you don't get is the transient 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears, cause the engine firing order is garbage basically. The extra engine capacity generates the power low down, but you just don't get the boost response you do with a superior engine phasing (4 cylinder). Maybe twins is the answer, but anecdotal evidence suggest not. We are talking street cars here with H pattern syncromesh gearboxes, not flat shift. IE: real street cars, not quasi race cars

http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/DatsunR34_Charles.htm This attached graph is on the stock RB26, with Nismo intake ITB, turbo system fitted but in NA form to calibrate the engine (noboostbro), and all other aspects are done with custom tables to account for map/tip, bap, fuel equivalence ratio, WM50 etc etc. There is minimal pressure drop overall, though what is ascribed to the throttle plates themselves is not known, either way its minor. This is obviously not an issue when you are running under turbocharged conditions thus we never felt the need to 'increase' the size of them even when running the 3.15lt engine that revs to 9k rpm. FYI, Most people ditch the ITB cause its hard to set up. I on the other hand love them On other engine types with respect to increasing the size again when the motor is at 3000mB + its really the most pointless money spent ever, may as well put some stickers on the car they give comparable power gains honestly. If however you are going to run the car at 1500 > 2000mB map and are limited say by racing class etc then this is an area worth looking into, but its for the last 1/5th of the power band mostly nothing more.

EVO is going mint, ~40psi boost, 3rd gear transients below, 100-150 in sub 2 seconds range. This EFR combo makes over 400awkw from 6k rpm and near its max over 2000rpm range with peak power all the way to red line of 9k rpm, results in a really fast car (not just a peak power dyno whore). Somewhere near 800bhp engine set up, whatever it is its fast, reliable and now proving to be durable too, nearly 18 minutes on load so far.

Oh and dont ever use a cam based trigger for anything other than a phase signal only rookies fark around with cam belt stuff honestly. We were always knock limited, tried all of the bullshit half arse solutions out there, and in the end the root cause was found to be relying on engine position through cam belt, put on a proper crank based set up and then no issues using correct ignition timing and more peak speed timing and power, engine far more efficient and obviously able to run at/near knock limit all the time.