Creating A Dedicated Track Gtr

[Sydneykid]

not sure what you are getting at there. the number of vehicles imported under DOTARS and compliance plate holders has nothing to do with vehicle eligibility for IPRA. Simply complying with dimension requirements of a touring car also does not make it eligible - it must fulfill one of those 2 categories in my previous post as well.

they release a bulletin each time its updated, obviously enough. It has been updated 3 times, but one of them was just because they couldn't spell Silvia :lol

look forward to seeing that bulletin release - as you say, it will remove any doubt. And it will make my plans for my old HR30 coupe's engine choice legal for IPRA!

I wonder what they think "member of the same family of vehicle" means if a R32 GTST is not a a member of the same family of vehicle as a R32 GTR surely R32 Skyline is the family of vehicle, and the various models (GTST, GTR, GTS4 etc) of R32 Skyline are members of that family? Its not like anyone's trying to say an R34 Skyline is the same family of vehicle as an R32.

oh well - wait for the bulletin. Would be good to see some other popular makes/model of grey imports on that list for IPRA too.

PL's idea is that "family" means R32GTR, R32GTR VSpec, R32GTR Vspec 2, R32GTRN1 etc

In order to get approval for IP (same as Silvia), you have to show that there are sufficient of them. That people can buy them. That you don't have the only one etc etc. That's where the DOTARS list comes in handy.

cheers

[Roy]

Last time I read the regs I had considered the list of mods, and bars etc were free, provided they fell within the guidelines that stop you turning the car into a sports sedan.

I remember reading the clauses and finding something about since the bonnet is bolt on and std equipment from the same manufacturer that does not require drilling etc then it is ok. The rules go on to say mountunbg brackets etc are free to be removed and outlines requirements for bonnet restraints so I could not see how they would stop me from running an alloy bonnet

But off topic. I think the golden rule if looking at building a track GTR is bin the idea of using an R32, go straight to the R33

[Duncan]

But off topic. I think the golden rule if looking at building a track GTR is bin the idea of using an R32, go straight to the R33

Why Roy, what do you get for the extra upfront cost, 200kg and un-tunable ECU?

[hrd-hr30]

Last time I read the regs I had considered the list of mods, and bars etc were free, provided they fell within the guidelines that stop you turning the car into a sports sedan.

I remember reading the clauses and finding something about since the bonnet is bolt on and std equipment from the same manufacturer that does not require drilling etc then it is ok. The rules go on to say mountunbg brackets etc are free to be removed and outlines requirements for bonnet restraints so I could not see how they would stop me from running an alloy bonnet

There are no freedoms granted to the use of bonnets in IPRA. Unless the rules specifically state that you can modify or replace a part, you can't. Standard replacement parts are OK, but you can only use parts made from a different material IF that part is "free" or there's a specific freedom alloying the use of that other material. Same way that you can't use composite materials in panels.

A9X Toranas can't run the factory standard bonnet with the hole and bonnet scoop. Just because its a factory component, doesn't mean it fits the rules.

[Roy]

Standard replacement parts are OK,

So if i run a VN SS Commodore i cant use a Calais bonnet???

I can think of a good example of an EB GT that isnt an EB GT that is usign an EB GT body kit, complete with bonnet

I would use an R33 as they appear to be a bit smarter in the 4wd computer, they seem to have better suspension, a little nicer balanced...adn they are newer.

The cost of the ECU remapping compared to the $800 Pfc isnt that bad...is it?

And the weight, yeh bugger. But i think its worth it, and when you take all the crap out of them do you think it would be that different anyway?

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

put a r33 4wd computer in the r32 if thats your concern, the r33 chassis is rubbish its way softer and less rigid than the r32, from memory the r33 pulls .91g on a skid pan and the r32 pulls .95, and thats factory!!! Remember in some classes you have to run a standard computer so that rules of PFC!! Plus you can never get the r33 as light as the r32 so they are always going to be a disadvantage against a r32 set up the same.

[GTRgeoff]

Why Roy, what do you get for the extra upfront cost, 200kg and un-tunable ECU?

Prettier

probably won't be limited edition gunmetal grey

wider track

standard bremmies

standard bigger wheels

260rwkw on stock computer, even more on cheater turbos

Anyway it's not about stock but "building".

I don't think SK defined his question well enough and we have once again slipped into the IPRA argument which is pointless. Just more CAMS (AKA Cretins Against Motor SPORT) bs trying to keep their mates happy and avoid realistic cost effective improvement to release modern motor vehicles competitive potential AND making a vehicle eligible in a number of classes. The reason I bailed Rally was the demise of Group G and the cost of bringing back to the new rules. Rally died a hard death for a lot of years. Their focus appears keep it expensive (or exclusive) enough so it's serious competitors only.

Where is the class for innovation??? Or must it always be a feeding ground for the same old formula for the same boring old farts (Not SK or Harry) to pontificate on minutae that has no bearing on racing.

If you want parity, watch super taxis or race a one make series. Some people want to take out a daily with some nice power mods and do door to door racing and not sprints.

Targa Class from Tassie sounds the goods.

[hrd-hr30]

So if i run a VN SS Commodore i cant use a Calais bonnet???

if they are the same (ie a replacement part) and made of the same material, you can use it. Another example is S1/2 RX7 are having trouble finding bumpers to use, because they are no freedoms there they have to use S1/2 steel bumpers, which are getting scarce.

I can think of a good example of an EB GT that isnt an EB GT that is usign an EB GT body kit, complete with bonnet

I guess your talking about Ray Hislop. I've never seen the car unfortunately - its supposed to be awesome in full flight. unless something has changed since my 2004 manual, bonnet scoops are not legal. if it does run the GT bonnet scoop, I'd guess the thing is just decorative and isn't an actual scoop, then it may be permitted.

[Sydneykid]

So if i run a VN SS Commodore i cant use a Calais bonnet???

I can think of a good example of an EB GT that isnt an EB GT that is usign an EB GT body kit, complete with bonnet

I would use an R33 as they appear to be a bit smarter in the 4wd computer, they seem to have better suspension, a little nicer balanced...adn they are newer.

The cost of the ECU remapping compared to the $800 Pfc isnt that bad...is it?

And the weight, yeh bugger. But i think its worth it, and when you take all the crap out of them do you think it would be that different anyway?

Without degenerating into a heavyweight discussion of IP rules…….what the car is log booked as determines what it is. For example you can buy a Falcon “taxi” and get it log booked as a “GT”, then run all the “GT” bits. But you can’t then run “taxi” bits later on, once a “GT” always a “GT”. This was realised some time ago when the natural source of race cars (statutory write offs) had to have the chassis numbers removed. So the requirement for a “GT” chassis number went out the window. Engines are free (same configuration and same number of cylinders notwithstanding) so engine numbers are useless in determining if it’s a “GT”.

There are many cars racing that have more than one log book, of course.

I won’t get into the A9X bonnet discussion, there seems to be total lack of homologation support paperwork for exactly what an “A9X” bonnet was. That’s better than the RX7’s of course, where CMAS has no Touring Car homologation papers for them at all. It seems to have been a “whatever Moffat wants” homologation process. Which still causes no end of grief 30 years later.

Onto a lot more interesting (and less brain ache) subjects. We looked at running an R33GTR instead of the R32GTR and found a few problems.

1. Nissan never homologated the R33GTR (or R34GTR for that matter), I guess they were still a bit sour on the FIA after dominating with the R32GTR worldwide and having the rules changed on them.

2. In Production (and even Improved Production) racing you can’t really remove the excess weight, a lighter race car is a faster race car

3. I could find no difference in the suspensions geometry and I looked hard.

4. The R32GTR N1 has the same brakes (Brembos) as the R33 GTR. We don’t run ABS, so any advances in that area are negated

5. Without getting too deep into the ATTESA workings, we actually found the R32GTR system to be superior on the track (ie; less understeer) with Production car horsepower. And In Improved Production spec, we can change the ATTESA so it doesn’t matter.

So it was the R32GTR for us, of course if we could afford/ be allowed to run an R34GTR Z Tune that might change the decision.

cheers

[hrd-hr30]

I don't think SK defined his question well enough and we have once again slipped into the IPRA argument which is pointless. Just more CAMS (AKA Cretins Against Motor SPORT) bs trying to keep their mates happy and avoid realistic cost effective improvement to release modern motor vehicles competitive potential AND

yeah, sorry. but I agree with you. the rules for Late Model vehicles suck. The problem is that the IPRA members propose and vote on any rule changes. Most of them are boring old farts who a) want to protect their competitive advantage in their early model rotaries, and b) have attitudes like "a 2L turbo shouldn't be able to win outright". I guess they've forgotten the days of Group A Sierra Cosworths

LM turbo rules are the worst, as SK has pointed out here before.

[Duncan]

I totally agree too....and the problem is short sightedness.

Once all the rx7s, toranas and crapris have gone on to rust heaven, which cars will make up an improved producton field?

Anyway....this wasn't really meant to be about IRPA regs, in fact it was....

"If you didn't have to follow a set of CAMS regs, what would you do"

[hrd-hr30]

Without degenerating into a heavyweight discussion of IP rules…….what the car is log booked as determines what it is. For example you can buy a Falcon “taxi” and get it log booked as a “GT”, then run all the “GT” bits. But you can’t then run “taxi” bits later on, once a “GT” always a “GT”. This was realised some time ago when the natural source of race cars (statutory write offs) had to have the chassis numbers removed. So the requirement for a “GT” chassis number went out the window.

ah, that's right. the falcon/commodore boys would get away with the sporting/evolution parts because there were more than 200 sold through a manufaturer network in Aus.

I'll stop talking about CAMS rules and regs now, and let the daydreams of being able to race GTR's the way god intended continue

Edited June 2, 2006 by hrd-hr30

[GTRgeoff]

Nothing to be sorry about. All contributions are useful. In fact we could almost run this into a long term discussion on what we would like to see as a set of rules to cover a functional class to allow competition and innovation for old and new cars.

What Gary said about the ATTESSA is interesting, as one of the most ferocious unclassed track cars, being the RPMGTR getting down to low 1:16's at Sandown on Semi's, is possibly using a more extreme clutchplate pre-load than the 33's and 34's, and Benno is fitting that setup to customers cars such as Snowmans. Different to the zero preload on 32's. I guess it comes down to driver comfort zone and driving style. For every corner there are different lines for different styles/handling characteristics/power delivery/defending/attacking ad-in-finitum.

I also had some feedback from a GTS4 owner that was to the effect of with no front drive it was an understeering pig.

This whole thread could turn into a self licking icecream and just power itself along with no useful outcomes, much like CAMS.

[Duncan]

Well regarding ATTESA I haven't come across any balance we can't acheive with the standard computer, I know the 34 for example is much faster but I don't beleive that has any relevence on a race track, it is very simple to know when torque is going to start moving to the front in a given corner and manage your lines and throttle for what you need.

I will be very interesting to see what the additional clutch preload does to durability on a road car over a few years.

Personally I think the biggest problem for a GTR is weight, but carbon panels are insanely expensive, especially considering how often I crash.

What else can we do to get the weight out of them?

Door panels

Dash

Interior goooone!

dry sump and fuel cell

There is plenty of wieght in the drivetrain but I guess thats needed so things dont break

[Duncan]

Maybe CAMS would let 4wd in sports sedans....thats more the sort of car I am thinking....or those tsukuba time attack cars in jp.

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

ROFL Geoff that last line made my day!!! hahahaha Its so funny cause its true!!!

[Fitzpatrick Speed Works]

Dunc, there is so much weight in the doors and the factory glass, if rules allow or whatever if you can at least save up for carbon doors and get the glass made out of lexan it will help, you can get the weight out of them. Although unrelated because its drag racing Reece mcgegors r32 is 1210KG without driver, now that is light for a GTR!!!

Edited June 2, 2006 by Fitzpatrick Speed Works

[Guest Mashrock]

buy a 34gtr from japan thats had all the $$$$ thorwn into it. not compliance just for the racey happy fun times

strip it out,

race

all for around about 50k

[Roy]

if they are the same (ie a replacement part) and made of the same material, you can use it. Another example is S1/2 RX7 are having trouble finding bumpers to use, because they are no freedoms there they have to use S1/2 steel bumpers, which are getting scarce.

IS there a difference between NSW, VIC etc etc Regs. I highly doubt it as they run in each others series. But again i remember you were allowed to replace steel bumper bars...so i dont think thats right either.

Anyway, enough speculation from us wannabee authorities...assuming you want to run in the class check the regs for yourself.

Is this theoretical track GTR limited to Improved Production class? It may be great to get into door to door racing, but one mixing of panels would make it even harder to get out there (Though there is plenty of respect for one anothers machinery it seems in the lower level events)

And are you sure about the rigidity thing. From a chasiss and suspension stance i thought the R33 was the clear winner over the old R32

[Guest Mashrock]

i.e.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie.../language_tools

theres a very good start..

even some vcam system on there for your low down response