bleed valve...

[adam 32]

It is a plain and simple fact that bleed valves dont bring it on my quiker.  

Here is why:  

i think youll find zahos' explanation supports what I am saying. why dont you try reading before posting. hell, why dont you try thinking before posting?

limited experience eh? i forgot you needed a honours degree in boost controllers. the fact i have had EXPERIENCE with the 2 most popular bleed valves an EBC makes it possible for me to comment, whereas you seem to be simply talking out of your ass.

[red17]

Waz, do you have a dump and front pipe on your R32? because if not, do that first. Its easily the most dramatic change in the way your turbo spools up. Efficency is the key and exhaust is where there so much to be gained.

Ive got a pretty old HKS EVC and i gotta say i cant feel any difference in when the boost builds up. Perhaps the newer ones are more configurable.

Red17

[WazR32GTSt]

dump and front eh? if i go to the local exhaust shop can they make these or do i have to buy pre-made ones?

[WazR32GTSt]

can u get one pipe made or do u have to do both separately?

that's actually a good idea first rather than boost... also how much is thermal tape?

[Emre]

i think youll find zahos' explanation supports what I am saying. why dont you try reading before posting. hell, why dont you try thinking before posting?

You are wrong again. I suggest you take your own advice and read his post till the end.

limited experience eh? i forgot you needed a honours degree in boost controllers. the fact i have had EXPERIENCE with the 2 most popular bleed valves an EBC makes it possible for me to comment

I run Win2k on one machine and XP on the other, so i'll go and look for a job as a system administrator tomorrow.

whereas you seem to be simply talking out of your ass.

OK clown, but consider this.

What is coming out of my ass makes more sense than what is coming out of your mouth. That doesn't say much about your intelligence does it...?

[WazR32GTSt]

do u guys want some tissues?

[Dr_Drift]

Fact - Most bleed valves do have boost spikes and wastgate creep. I've seen up to a 5 psi spike from turbo smarts...

Fact - Some bleed valves work better than others

Fact - Some EBC's are better than others.....

Doc.

[Zahos]

What I was trying to get at is:

- You can have a good pneumatic setup, but

- A good dual solenoid EBC is better, and more reliable.

Red17: If yours is of the older type, then it is probably a single solenoid, and most likely only adjusts the max boost seen in the plenum. From my understanding, the dual solenoid EBC's use one solenoid to control wastegate creep (ie: dont let any air to the wastegate until you set it to), and the other will control boost levels.

[adam 32]

so what youre basically trying to say is tha bleed valves bring on boost earlier. please explain this einstein, (dont refer to zahos cos youll find hes actually saying that BLEED VALVES ON THEIR OWN WILL NOT BRING BOOST ON EARLIER) then why dont you call up top secret and tell them to take all the EBC's of their cars cos youve just discovered that bleed valves are in fact better.

i dont think youre windows comparison relates to what we are saying dumbass. but nice try.

[adam 32]

red17; does your EVC have fuzzy logic?

or manual GAIN switches? this is what u can adjust to help boost come on quicker. if you increase GAIN this holds the wastegate shut longer, however if you turn it up too high it can cause overboosting. most people have gain around the 3/4 mark which gives a decent balance of quick spool-up and boost control

theres a manual on the net about them as well, cos a few people here in perth have em and have had all sorts of dramas re-calibrating them from japan

[Squizz]

Ok I'm not the mod for this section but I will start editing/deleting posts in a second if you guys don't calm down, keep things on topic, and answer the initial question in a civil manner.

[Sydneykid]

Wow, this one got nasty...............

Hi WazR32GTSt, there is a logical order in doing mods to Skylines that people have found works, gives good results and is cost effective. Have a look at .............

http://www.meggala.com/

It has an easy to understand and well used progression in making your Skyline more to your liking.

Moving on to boost control. We use the Norgren based Autospeed design a lot. The only trick is we use silicone hoses and put the valves inside the cold air box. This stops any fluctuations due to excessive under bonnet temperature.

I have never tried this with other valve based systems, but I have no doubt that it would work.

The two valve system allows you to adjust the maximum boost and the boost ramp, it does not truly enable you to bring on boost earlier. What it does is enable you to limit the amount that the wastegate opens before full boost is reached, this increasing the slope of the boost ramp, without changing its start point.

Looking at it conversely if the engine has no boost at all, then adjusting the valve will not give it boost. An example...........

If you have a wastegate that say opens at 5 psi and you want 10 psi of boost. Up to 5 psi adjusting the valve makes no difference. As the engine builds boost above 5 psi the wastegate will open a little and slow down the rate of boost increase until it gets to 10 psi where the wastegate will be fully open. So by adjusting the valve you can increase the slope of the ramp but only by as much as the engine is in fact building boost.

How you set up the boost ramp is a personal thing, some people like the smooth progression of the standard ramp others like the nothing .......... nothing ...... bang sensation. What I can say is for a wet race we turn the max boost down a bit and, more importantly, make sure we have the smoothest ramp we can get.

Hope that helps.

[Emre]

It's extremely amusing to see, how one can interpret things the way he wants to. This is a sign of an individual not not being able to communicate clearly, or not understanding how things work in the discussed topic.

I never claimed, the bleed valves would be better than an EBC, i said they could be just as effective to use. You have trouble understanding what is written, for that i'd suggest you to go to the start of the thread and read it till it's clear.

This whole saga started with Waz asking for people's opinion on the article he linked in his first post. Get this clear, he is NOT in the market for an EBC. Than Zahos linked a couple more aricles on the subject which basically explains all you want to know. Now, it's plain obvious you either didn't read those links or you didn't understand what was written again; so let me simplify it for you as best as i can.

The factory boost selenoid controls the boost by bleeding air from the wastegate line; let's say the wastegate is fully open at 10 psi and the selenoid is bleeding maximum amount of air it can at that pressure.

The first method is putting a valve in the line that goes into the boost selenoid. With this valve you are basically tricking the selenoid by bleeding off some of the air that it sees. The selenoid receives less pressure in the line and keep the wastegate shut at higher pressures. With this method, your boost will build up in the same way as the factory setup but you will be able to run higher boost. Simply putting a restriction on the wastegate line will alter the way your car comes on boost.

The second method is putting two valves in series in the wastegate line. By putting a pressure regulator (a valve) you can alter the amount of air the diaphram in the wastegate receives thus allowing you to run the boost level you want. A second valve is used before the pressure regulator to control the creep which is similar in operation to your gain button on your EBC. This valve prevents any air passing through it till a certain adjustable point. If you set it at 12psi, no air will be passing through it and your wastegate will be fully shut till then.

And that's my friend how you can make your car come on boost earlier, just like an EBC does in less than $100.

[Squizz]

Um, R32's don't have boost soleniods, minor detail.

[Emre]

Than you use the second method.

[DennisRB30]

Originally posted by Zahos

It is a plain and simple fact that bleed valves dont bring it on my quiker.

Here is why:

For boost to come on as quick as possible, you would need to prevent *ANY* air from reaching the wastegate, so that it stays shut, and every bit of air passing out of your exhaust manifold is used to spool the turbo up quicker.

Zahos

I find this to be slightly wrong. The inital statement says a bleed valve will not bring it on any quicker, but then the explination goes on to talk about bringing boost on as soon as possible. The difference being ANY quicker and QUICK AS POSSIBLE

The explination is correct in saying that NO* pressure must reach the wastgate to bring boost on in the fastest possible way.

*Well at least not enought to move the actuator.

But, the fact remains that in a stock application the amount of creep is proportianal to the amount of pressure the wastegate receives before full boost is reached. Even a bleed valve will REDUCE the amount of pressure the wastegate gets by bleeding of air (I'm thinking of a system without a solenoid here, not sure how the solenoind is controled by the ECU).

The valve bleeds of air as soon as boost is made, which includes spool time. So, during the spooling stage less pressure is applied to the gate so less creep will occur. The effect will never be as good as an EBC but is still there.

Bled off air = less pressure at the wastegate ANY time boost is being made.

More pondering... The wastegate will not open as soon as ANY form of pressure is reached. It will take a certain amount of PSI to start opening the gate. At a guess if the spring tension is set to 10psi it might take at least 5psi to start to overcome the spring tension and effect spool up. You can see how even a bleed valve would reduce the pressure during spoolup, therefore lessening the effects of creep.

I just thought of the situation and came to these conclusions, no mags or internet hear-say have lead me to think this. Read what I have said again and think about it yourself because it does seem to make sense.

If it's wrong, please EXPLAIN why, istead of raving about how shit bleed valves are. I have never had probs with them.

[Zahos]

No, you are correct in what you say, in fact, I mentioned earlier that with a plain bleed valve setup, it does actually reduce wastegate creep as opposed to the factory setup. If you read the post directly under the one you quoted from (post 14), you can clearly see that is exactly what I wrote much earlier on in this discussion.

I also said that no air should get to the wastegate to spool the turbo *as quick as possible* like you mentioned. I never said that even the slightest pressure will open the wastegate... In fact, it was mentioned somewhere after that post what the "cracking" pressure of the stock wastegate is. I never knew what it was so I never bothered to mention....

So in fact, you did agree with everything I said, and everything you discussed has already been covered in this thread, but I don’t think you read it all, and hence misinterpreted what I said. Up to now, I have provided my arguments for all my opinions, have I not? And where did I rave on about how sh1t bleed valves are? I said that an EBC is better, but again a good result can be obtained with a pneumatic configuration (post #4). In fact, I use a pneumatic setup in my car, and that is what I recommended for a low budget setup. (again, post #4)

If the last comment in your post was directed at me, I suggest you read through the entire thread carefully next time, and note what different peoples opinions are before posting. As you have a quote from one of my posts, it seems yours is directed entirely at me.

If it was directed at someone else, next time try to make it a little more clear who your comments are directed to.

Zahos

[TTT]

zahos, sydney kid.

can either of you please tell me the total cost of building the autospeed boost controller.

I mean, how much did it cost you guys for the valves, hoses, clamps and any other MATERIALS required.

I believe that I would be able to put it together myself, but I am wondering if it will be worth it in the end..

I only plan to run maybe 13 psi on my rb20det with an rb25 turbo.

the standard turbo currently hits 11psi with only full exhaust, pod filter and ARC standard cooler replacement.

My RB25 turbo will be on my car tomorrow afternoon.

I have this TURBOXS HPBC sitting on my shelf and was planning on using this.

I believe that this has the ability to bring boost on earlier..

but I don't see how as it only has one adjustment on the top.

quote from TURBOXS "High Performance Boost Controller $129.00

Adjustable ball/spring design gets you to full boost hundreds of RPM faster than stock!"

if I am only looking at 2 - 3 psi increase, would this valve be good enough?

anyway guys, the original post asked for some info and some of you started fighting.. why?

we're skyline owners/enthusiasts.. not clowns from Fast Fours forums..

so drop it...

the man wants a CHEAP upgrade, lets find him a cheap upgrade..

I believe that ZAHOS's input of the autospeed article was the best one..

PS. my TurboXS HPBC only cost me $50 second hand..

keep an eye out for them..

[Zahos]

Hey GTST, I haven't used that valve before, so I don’t know how well it works. It will however bring boost on a little quicker that stock form, but the setup in the article I listed will be better as it will reduce wastegate creep.

From memory, I think I paid something like $40 per valve from Norgren, and $10??? for the check valve from Enzed. Plus there was the hoses, and fittings which was about another $30 - $40 extra, so I estimate around $130 all up for that setup. (I did mine about a year ago, so prices may vary now???)

The reason people tend to argue on forums (regardless of the fact we are all skyline enthusiasts), is the same reason people will always argue..... Conflict of opinion! If you think about it, it's actually a good thing, as people will provide many arguments for many varying opinions, and it can open your eyes to something you may not have heard or thought of before. But then again you will always get some people who are just to nit-picky, don’t base their opinions on any solid arguments, are just to damn stubborn, but you have to expect that too, but you just need to learn how to ignore it. It doesn't bother me, because my opinions are based on my own judgement of the many different arguments I have heard/read and my own logic.

Anyhow, the best thing you can do, is put the valve you have in, and see how you like it. If you want to upgrade later on, the all you need to buy is the preasure relief valve, and the check valve. You can use your bleed valve in place of the preasure regulator valve listed in the article.

Zahos

[DennisRB30]

Zahos, I wasn't having a go at you. After reading my post I can see how you might have thought the whole post was directed at you. Only the first part of my thread was aimed at you. The rest went on to explain exactly how a bleed valve WILL bring boost on earlier. I felt I needed to expalain it because I didn't think that people had got the message, and it was never expalined in detail.

I explained the situation in a more precise detail with respect to all wastegate air bleeds so anyone could understand. You did mention something about the sonenoid, bringing on boost faster with a bleed valve, but remember that you did say things like, "normal bleed valves are crap" and "It is a plain and simple fact that bleed valves dont bring it on my quiker." There are no two ways of interpreting those one liners

The last comment was only directed at the people who were bagging bleed valves without any reasons and to all people who like to argue furiously without a shed of reason for their opinions. (not necessarily in this thead or forum, just pisses me off becuase it happens all the time on forums) I too think a good debate can be very healthy as long as people give information with their opinions instead of just saying that "it is how it is because my mate told me" Your posts generaly have good content and I always try to explain what I write so people can them make their own opinion