Mark And Duncans R32 Build

[Duncan]

i reckon there is no doubt, the sort of development that has gone into things like gm or ford heads has never gone into rb heads. I'm not surprised there is still a lot to be learned.

and everyone know everything you've read on the internet is true.

Brad, the results you've got from your car power wise are amazing, same with Russ, same with Paul. Goes to show there is a lot you can do with little twin low mounts

[Risking]

Your correct Duncan.

The guy I do the heads with has long dealt with highpo V8's. Everything he knew about head porting (Hand or CNC) has been swirled around when we started doing RB heads.

There is no ideal port size or shape, it has so much hit and miss when your trying to get everything you can from it.

Pump fuel becomes an issue but this new engine is having no dramas with it so far.

Duncan myself and the Grey GTR will be parting ways after one or two last outings.

Only good news is the new owner is a real good mate of mine so I still get to build it again after im finished stripping all my running gear out!

The boys new RB30 combination should be something else though.

[Swiper the Fox]

Its not all expence. Patience is a massive thing that I lack severly.

I have a good mate who owns a machine shop and engine dyno so alot of the machining and so forth did not cost anything.

The heads were an experiment that proved alot in the real world, much of which is contrary to popular belief. Problem with the sort of thing we did/do is that those who read about it on the interweb refuse to grasp the concept as its not the mainstream way to do things, but who says mainstream is the correct way??

Porting is an art that im slowly learning, it really is not a case of one port for all set-ups. It needs to be carefully thought out and bigger is not always better. When someone says to me now oh the head is ported my new train of thought is yep could be good could be bad.

I have a customer/good mate who is building a massively overkill 2.8. His engineer has cut up 2 heads and cylinder block just to assess what can be done about uneven heating etc. Its ridiculous the lengths his gone to but again if/when he tells people what he found will they listen??

Im not sure what Paul was making in the end Duncan but yeah its well and truely up there now. I think I may still be down on Brandsters car but I know the top speed at oran park is well above their's.

Pull the head back off Duncan, Ill pick it up. Can never do enough R&D....

You get to a point where the small internal wastegates are unable to bypass enough air to maintain boost control....that point for us was a smidge over 500 AWKW.

We tried two heads and 3 different cam profiles to get it right...costs a lot of $$ and time but a lot is learned through this process....And ive just done it again now that ive gone to a 1200ps turbo (T51R SPL modified with a new T62 compressor wheel 108mm). We are now living on Salvo's food vouchers...lol

[BezerkR32]

i agree to a certain degree, it has taken the RB series engine alot longer to be appreciated by the australian public, and lets face it, the 25 & 26 heads dont need much work. can get the engines humming in standard form where as ford and holden engines require all the help they can get as the R&D wasnt there from factory where as Nissan did a good job out of the box. Id reckon in Japan there would be some cylinder head gurus....but it is definately a good thing that it is beccoming a more common occurance here now.

i reckon there is no doubt, the sort of development that has gone into things like gm or ford heads has never gone into rb heads. I'm not surprised there is still a lot to be learned.

and everyone know everything you've read on the internet is true.

Brad, the results you've got from your car power wise are amazing, same with Russ, same with Paul. Goes to show there is a lot you can do with little twin low mounts

[Duncan]

ahh well I'd be content if china's finest would push 500kw that should get me to the corners in time. I somehow think all these things are a bit outside the intent and budget of this build though.

how much power do you expect to make from the new tubro paul?

Brad...I thought you were on to something (if you have 2 gtrs you double the chance that one will be working) but obviously not. You have an absolute shitload to do on the new one with development on the new suspension points etc, hope it will be ready to race for next season.

BTW we are bending mark's new cage shortly do you still need main hoop and a pillars?

Incidently our head was done by a guy with mostly v8 and holden 6 drag experience too with and without boost in them. they love the potential of the rb heads but still have lots of testing/learning to do about different setups.

[Risking]

You get to a point where the small internal wastegates are unable to bypass enough air to maintain boost control....that point for us was a smidge over 500 AWKW.

We tried two heads and 3 different cam profiles to get it right...costs a lot of $$ and time but a lot is learned through this process....And ive just done it again now that ive gone to a 1200ps turbo (T51R SPL modified with a new T62 compressor wheel 108mm). We are now living on Salvo's food vouchers...lol

Small internal gates were holding us back as well. Hence we ditched them and used twin external wastegates to assist. I was getting severe boost creep which I asume you also ran into?

New turbo, new engine combination it never ends!

ahh well I'd be content if china's finest would push 500kw that should get me to the corners in time. I somehow think all these things are a bit outside the intent and budget of this build though.

how much power do you expect to make from the new tubro paul?

Brad...I thought you were on to something (if you have 2 gtrs you double the chance that one will be working) but obviously not. You have an absolute shitload to do on the new one with development on the new suspension points etc, hope it will be ready to race for next season.

BTW we are bending mark's new cage shortly do you still need main hoop and a pillars?

Incidently our head was done by a guy with mostly v8 and holden 6 drag experience too with and without boost in them. they love the potential of the rb heads but still have lots of testing/learning to do about different setups.

While it would have been nice to keep 3 GTR's I dont have the room so one had to go.

Suspension is going to be my headache thats for sure. Since the running gear is now sorted in the old chassis the new one will benifit greatly from all the grunt. I have a few base line times now that I will expect the new car to surpass very easily. (wishfull thinking but meh). The grey car is now very quick around the circuits I have tested it on so far. Shame to retire it now with so little to finish off but Jay will finish off the little things and replicate what it currently has engine wise.

Its last outting will be wakefield in december.

Hmmm not sure yet Duncan, Ill let you know in the next few days as I may be doing them a bit different to marks.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Risking

[Swiper the Fox]

ahh well I'd be content if china's finest would push 500kw that should get me to the corners in time. I somehow think all these things are a bit outside the intent and budget of this build though.

how much power do you expect to make from the new tubro paul?

Brad...I thought you were on to something (if you have 2 gtrs you double the chance that one will be working) but obviously not. You have an absolute shitload to do on the new one with development on the new suspension points etc, hope it will be ready to race for next season.

BTW we are bending mark's new cage shortly do you still need main hoop and a pillars?

Incidently our head was done by a guy with mostly v8 and holden 6 drag experience too with and without boost in them. they love the potential of the rb heads but still have lots of testing/learning to do about different setups.

The intent of our build was to make the maximum torque we could as early as we could without comprimising top-end power and the ability to rev. If i had the budget i would have made it with a 2.7 JUN full counter crank, but you have to stop somewhere i suppose.

power...a bit over 900awhp should get me the time and MPH im after...Im gunning for Theo's ANDRA class national record. PPG straight cut dogbox, Vi-PEC V88 ecu, modified transfer case and rear diff set-up and a lighter car should get me there. Mark will be tuning the car shortly.

Edited November 4, 2008 by DiRTgarage

[Risking]

Sounds the goods.

Im considering a 50/50 constant AWD set-up for the new car. Kinda like a welded up transfer case.

Or the idea I was bouncing off Duncan a few weeks back.

[Angus Smart]

Hows that light coming along Brad?? i almost forgot about it, looked at the car tonite with a missing headlight and started searching for the original one!

[Duncan]

Yeah I've been thinking about that, I think at the minimum you still need some control over the split from the dash.

The BSM guys have been running fixed torque on their cars for years (and have the results to show its a good idea) but they have been breaking *heaps* of front diffs with big power and lots of fwd.

I think you will also need an xfr case and front diff cooler if you are doing more than a couple of laps at a time.

Having said all that, you could dump a lot of stuff from the car eg abs senders and all that wiring if you didn't run the std system. I was thinking about putting both into this car, all I need is a switch, variable controller and some extra wiring for the fixed split

[BezerkR32]

4wd cheeters

Yeah I've been thinking about that, I think at the minimum you still need some control over the split from the dash.

The BSM guys have been running fixed torque on their cars for years (and have the results to show its a good idea) but they have been breaking *heaps* of front diffs with big power and lots of fwd.

I think you will also need an xfr case and front diff cooler if you are doing more than a couple of laps at a time.

Having said all that, you could dump a lot of stuff from the car eg abs senders and all that wiring if you didn't run the std system. I was thinking about putting both into this car, all I need is a switch, variable controller and some extra wiring for the fixed split

[Swiper the Fox]

4wd cheeters

who you callin' cheaters...we only have one extra diff...you have TWO extra cylinders!

[lofty]

hi

we built a transfer case with a solid shaft and tested it . the car was fast with 50/50 split but with the front diff half the size its a problem.

The biggest problem is with a mechanical lock up transfer case is not as much under power as under brakes, when braking real hard the load goes back through the front diff to the trasnsfer case and the weakest link is the sump case. they blow the diff off the side of the sumpcase.

cheers dave

BSM

[haw001]

Makes a lot of mechanical sense Dave, and I assume it saves a bit of weight without all the clutch packs in the transfer case, but could you not fix the problem electronically using the standard setup and either altering the computer or changing the inputs?

You can mess with the g-sensor inputs to give you more or less 4wd based on lateral movement, and I assume you could do the same with the abs inputs as well, or even more radically, do away with the 4wd computer altogether and setup your own basic 4wd activator.

It's sounds as though what you are trying to achieve is to dumb down the 4wd controller so that it operates at full lock, thus 50/50 split all the time except for when under braking. That could be achieved pretty simply without any circuit at all by simply using a brake switch or the forward output of the g-sensor and a relay tied into you atessa pump power feed. Under normal operation, full power to the pump causing lock, brake on, no power, free wheeling.

With a little more complexity by building a pretty simple circuit, you could modify this to be something more complex with a partial load on the pump so that you have a lower 4wd split rather than nothing.

From memory, there are also some Jap tuners who have craked the Atessa computer. If you can find them, then you can accomplish all of the above with a bit of simple reprogramming.

[lofty]

hi

we have and now do again run the 4wd through the motec. last time we built a complex set of tables that was hard to set the car up as different corners ect had different handling,so we manually gave it torqe splits. the car was faster mainly from being easier to set up. with restrictors the power was limited and this worked fine. now with slicks we have big grip levels and have to be carefull with front diff. eg with first time on slicks 3 laps of Oran park blew front diff off case. Now with motec it dissengauges front diff under more than 1g longtitude and over 220kph. last time at e/c 1.38.72 and 280kph down straight.

dave

BSM

Edited November 5, 2008 by lofty

[Angus Smart]

Isnt that a bit low? Eg, ground clearance?

Just found out they were the specs the customer wanted...?

[haw001]

hi

we have and now do again run the 4wd through the motec. last time we built a complex set of tables that was hard to set the car up as different corners ect had different handling,so we manually gave it torqe splits. the car was faster mainly from being easier to set up. with restrictors the power was limited and this worked fine. now with slicks we have big grip levels and have to be carefull with front diff. eg with first time on slicks 3 laps of Oran park blew front diff off case. Now with motec it dissengauges front diff under more than 1g longtitude and over 220kph. last time at e/c 1.38.72 and 280kph down straight.

dave

BSM

Which Motec are you using to manage the 4wd?

The 4wd system has always been what really attracted me to the GTR over other cars. Let's face it, it's rather heavy, rather complicated, and despite the common punter belief, far from bulletproof past a certain point, but no other car has the in built beauty (at least not at them time) of an electronically controlled 4wd system. The RB is a great engine, but there are lot of great engines out there and it's getting a bit long in the tooth.

The main problem is that the car was not sold specifically for the track or the tarmac, it's a road based system and thus the 4wd system is rather dumbed down to accomodate regular road use. I've used 4wd controllers which modify the lateral inputs and a modified Atessa computer, but have often thought that the best bet would be to use the 4wd system in a way similar to the way F1 used to 'cheat' (before it was banned) and program for a specific track. I don't mean that you would GPS every corner, but certainly have a different program for a track with a long straight, or hairpin, or a different setup for track and tarmac. At the very least, you could modify for different spring rates and tyres, which greatly affect 4wd use.

[N1GTR]

Just found out they were the specs the customer wanted...?

Is it a drag GTR?

[lofty]

hi

we run the 4wd with the motec ADL

dave

BSM

[Risking]

Mark the circuitry you mentioned is exactly what I was talking about last time I was at your place. It does work as you say and works fairly well.

Were now doing it in my grey GTR.

I was aware of the diff falling off issue but was not certain it happened with a "locked transfer" or not. Ill be steering clear of that now.

Another one were playing with is using the auxillary output maps in the E11V2 to control the Attessa. It can be set like a boost controller solonoid (in a round about way) which is what the guys have probably done with the Motec. Using a 2D map were able to control the ammount of front bias according to almost any pair of engine parameters.

Atm I have it set up using road speed with TPS correction.