Grip v Handling

[Roy]

Can a car with poor handling have good grip, or vice versa?

I dont think the two are always the same thing.

Secondly, is traction the same as grip.... my thinking is traction is power down, and grip is more the total cornering Gs that can be attained.

Just curious to know how many ppl refer to the same term , but have different meanings/unsderstandings of the word... just look at lag and boost threshold.

[R31Nismoid]

Can a car with poor handling have good grip, or vice versa?

IMO sorta. You can have a well setup car suspension wise, but if you have the wrong choice of tyre, then you wont have good grip.

But they are interrelated.

Tyres can only do so much, sometimes loss of grip is due too poor handling.

[Astroboy]

depends in what instance..

like in a straight you need good grip to get the power to the ground...

while in a road you need grip to keep you on the road and you need handling to be take the best line...

[StraightSix]

Can a car with poor handling have good grip, or vice versa?

I dont think the two are always the same thing.

I think you are on the right track. Think about a car that can go 'round a corner at ludicrous speed, but has no steering feel, so you can't tell what the front wheels are doing. Might understeer into a ditch at any moment with no warning. This same car is set up so that if you do manage to lose grip, it will first understeer, then as soon as the front regains grip it will viciously snap oversteer. That's a car with good grip but very poor handling.

Conversely you can have a car with skinny tires and low grip, but will do whatever you want it to, completely predictable, adjustable on the throttle or with left foot brake just as you please, neutral at the limit and relaxed in its reactions. That's a car with little grip but excellent handling.

[Roy]

...you can have a car with skinny tires and low grip, but will do whatever you want it to, completely predictable, adjustable on the throttle or with left foot brake just as you please, neutral at the limit and relaxed in its reactions.  That's a car with little grip but excellent handling.

Thats my thinking, another thread got me thinking about a video i have of Richard Burns driving an R33 GTR around a pommie track, and despite having the quickest lap times, he said it wasnt a very nice 'handling car"...sure has huge levels of grip and traction, but didnt handle that well, a little FWD Peogot was agreed to be a better handling car by both Burns (WRC Driver) and Harvey (Touring Car driver).

So how many other ppl feel that handling referes to feel, not just grip?

[cul202]

having driven cars with nice tyres/shit suspension set up & vis versa, i'd say that there is a decent difference in my mind.

alot of grip combined with buggered bushes & insufficient body ridgidity can make a car feel very nervous through a corner. you seem to end up going through the corner fast but it feels like you're only a step away from exiting belly up...

for instance my gtst gives a less confident feel to a 300z i drove a while back. the 300 had a sidways tendancy but always felt more predictable, while mine holds on to the road it has a sqirmy, body roll thing going on

[GTRgeoff]

Troy you need to borrow my text on Race Car Engineering and mechanics by van Valkenberg. I'll bring it to the next club meeting. Bet you have trouble putting it down.

[Roy]

Troy you need to borrow my text on Race Car Engineering and mechanics by van Valkenberg. I'll bring it to the next club meeting. Bet you have trouble putting it down.

... along with Engineer to win, Race Car Chassis Design blah, blah, blah

...cant remember the specific titles of the ones i have... id love to borrow the Valkenberg one if its one of the ones i dont have.

A good exampe is Duncan's R33, std susp with good rubber and well driven, it is usually one of the fastest cars at any track day the NSW Skyline guys go to.

Now it obviously has good grip, but can you say it handles well considering its susp is std and uses the outside shoulders of tyres.

So when ppl here say the car handles well, is it because there is no bodyroll, because it has good grip, becuase if feels controllable around corners but doesnt rattle your teeth loose... etc etc.

I have my opinion, just wondering what other ppl define handling as.

[Merli]

Dundan's car didn't have standard suspension... Even a 4 year old could tell that it was lowered, which could mean a whole lot of other suspension mods

edit: I think the best grip and handling mods you can do it to get driver training

[Duncan]

now be nice to my suspension....I've since confirmed that it did have lowered king springs...nothing else tho

but on topic, I vote for handling and grip are different. One of the cars I tried down at wakefield had exactly the same problem as my GTR....handling was "unpredictable" - they need to settle into a corner before you can give it some. My gtst on the other hand was very predictable so you could get on the gas way early, and you knew that it would turn in when you asked it.

So....give me something predictable any day, outright grip is less important than trusting the car to respond properly

[GTRgeoff]

I would agree with Merli. many quick cars fail to meet potential due to drivers.

Personally i classify handling as the dynamic response to input eg. rapid changes in direction while braking/accelerating, and it is not really quantitative but more qualitative from an individual perspective.

Grip I classify as more a steady state situation, such as testing on a skid pan or drag racing. Ever see a drag rail try to turn a corner? But they have massive grip.

Great book though. Has that excerpt i posted on tyre grip.

See below for *ehem* handling....note the body roll on that fat barge

[Merli]

now be nice to my suspension....I've since confirmed that it did have lowered king springs...nothing else tho

Which confirms my driver training comment

*Merli goes off to ring Peter Finlay

[Roy]

KING SPRINGS!!!!!!

They are good for at least 6 seconds a lap, then the tyres another 4 seconds a lap...

Point still stands though even with King Springs.

So a GTR has better traction then a RWD car, courtesy of its 4wd, but all things being equal with tyres and shock/springs/swaybars etc do they have more grip? (lateral cornering Gs)