Hks 2535 On E85 Power?

[Ryno]

Hey Josh,

I haven't considered running E85, as there isn't anywhere that sells it down my way and (as I have a power FC) I can't run dual maps. Also I seriously don't need any more power given my car is a daily. The Torque it puts out is awesome, so there almost never a need to rev the engine out to get the job done. The other thing that has been a nice surprise, is that my fuel economy has improved by around 1 1/2 litres per 100kms - which make sense as there is now better volumetric efficiency on light loads, and better power (for the same boost level) everywhere in the rev range.

As far as I know MX Performance is the only manifold designer that is making manifolds in 1" diameter (when requested) and that is the key to getting all the response and torque low in the rev range. I bought the manifold and gate from Mike at MX as a package deal (for a bloody good price) but you'd have to speak to him to see what he can do for you. I also bought all the dump parts off him, but had Luke at O2 Performance weld it all up once we fitted the turbo to the car.

[Joshbigt62r]

I'll have to give him a call and have a chat to him about a setup. So it's the 1" runners that give all the response? What are normal top mount manifolds? So he can make the dump up ect as well or just supply the parts to be welded? I just can't believe how much torque your setup makes with a gtrs. It's amazing lol. Have you ever put it on the track or drag strip.???

[Ryno]

Yes the 1" runners are the key, Mike told me that they put one of these manifolds on a RB20 and with a 3076 turbo, it hit 20psi at 3600rpm!

No I haven't tracked the car or taken it down a strip. I'd need to get the car squatting better as full throttle spins through 1st and 2nd, and that wouldn't result in a very quick time.

Mike would definitely have the skills to make up the dump, but I don't think he has a template to make a generic dump, so I'd say he'd need your car.

[Lithium]

Given the 2535 is quite similar to the GT-RS, I think you'd hit the power level you're after quite easily with E85 and this manifold setup.

Agreed, not even sure he would need the manifold.

Curious, why is does the new dyno run finish so much earlier?

[Ryno]

That was while we were doing the initial tune, so it wasn't wound out. But it was the only one that was saved at wastegate pressure to give the comparison at the same boost level.

The other graphs I have at high boost were taken when quite heat soaked, so it would be interesting to see what figures it would put down before the heat soak sets in. Maybe I need to put my name down on the next SAU dyno day.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Ryno

[AngryRB]

its interesting how people are looking at that dyno graph thinking thats great, cause my gtx3076 on 98 dyno graph is pretty much an exact replica of that one above, even the boost is reached at the same point, id be keen to drive it to compare to mine, surely the dyno doesnt lie that much compared to the street, mine was on a mainline dyno which is supposed to read lowish..

[Joshbigt62r]

Post your graph so we can compare

[AngryRB]

Post your graph so we can compare

first one is 98 only, slight 18psi spike in mid, but still comparable really, same as one in blue below but that ones in HP but is the same boost curve in the blue.. and no fancy manifolds just a stock one

seconds just to show the difference with more boost and eflex

Edited February 17, 2013 by AngryRBGTX

[R31Nismoid]

its interesting how people are looking at that dyno graph thinking thats great, cause my gtx3076 on 98 dyno graph is pretty much an exact replica of that one above, even the boost is reached at the same point, id be keen to drive it to compare to mine, surely the dyno doesnt lie that much compared to the street, mine was on a mainline dyno which is supposed to read lowish..

Yes but like a lot of things - they may look VERY similar on a dyno. Drive them, and it's totally different.

A post recently summed it up brilliantly from a user who has used a few types now.

GT-RS is very snappy on/off throttle compared to the 2835ProS so a better thing in cut and thrust city traffic. The ProS needs a slightly bigger throttle opening to get the car to move so despite dyno printouts looking similar down low they feel very different on the road. Once the roads open up the ProS has more legs and is fantastic particularly 80-110km/h when overtaking.

The GT3040 and GT3076 feel like slightly larger framed turbos and are not as responsive in traffic but have a whole lot more to give once they come on boost. The much maligned GT3040 is very close in performance to the new TS GT3076 with a few hundred rpm difference in boost threshold which could be due to tuning as much as compressor size or TS turbine housing. IMO the GT3040 is a budget GTX3076 and all it needs is someone to use E70-85 to prove it but no one has done it yet. Given the cost vs gain I wish I had stuck with my GT3040 although the GT3076 is a better thing it just wasn't worth the coin changing over.

[AngryRB]

Yes but like a lot of things - they may look VERY similar on a dyno. Drive them, and it's totally different.

A post recently summed it up brilliantly from a user who has used a few types now.

so the dyno shows full throttle reaction, so at full throttle theres zero difference in 4th gear,

i would of thought a small turbo would be ahead early on even in forth, my only comparison is my old 2871 hiflow which might of felt like it had a BIT more response( certainly earlier boost) but the GTX would soon round it up and by 3500rpm blow it away. seems like a massive compromise for some bottem end torque.

Edited February 17, 2013 by AngryRBGTX

[Ryno]

so the dyno shows full throttle reaction, so at full throttle theres zero difference in 4th gear,

i would of thought a small turbo would be ahead early on even in forth, my only comparison is my old 2871 hiflow which might of felt like it had a BIT more response( certainly earlier boost) but the GTX would soon round it up and by 3500rpm blow it away. seems like a massive compromise for some bottem end torque.

Comparing the graphs there isn't zero difference...

60kph my car - 53rwkw yours - 45rwkw

70kph my car - 64rwkw yours - 51rwkw

80kph my car - 78rwkw yours - 65rwkw

90kph my car - 95rwkw yours - 85rwkw

That doesn't look like much of a difference, but that is the part of the torque range that counts in making a road car very nice to drive. My car has it over yours by at least 10 - 20% through that area, and add to that the instant throttle response makes a power delivery that's just awesome to drive.

[Lithium]

How much of that do you think is to do with the fancy 1" runner manifold - or really, how do you think that manifold would affect something like a GT30R's driveability?

[Ryno]

I think the manifold is excellent and would transform any turbo, but I'm not selling them, I'm just passing on my experience.

I should clarify that with my power comparisons above, there are so may variables (different temps/dyno's etc) but the main point of difference may be diff ratio... Mine is 4.08:1 so if you're is the same the comparison will be "mostly" valid for full throttle.

[discopotato03]

Ryno if I read it right you made about 265 anyou are saying that a 1" runner manifold will "spool" some reasonably healthy sized turbos even on an RB20 .

I'm using the same turbo on an RB25DET with its port matched only std cast manifold and I don't think its lazy to get going - or lightswitch either .

I think tuning is critical in these light throttle engine and turbo transient stages and the mixtures and timimg need to be spot on to get the best performance in these areas . When they are you get the most part throttle torque possible because the engine is making the best use of its air and fuel .

The thing I didn't notice on your graphs was a torque curve or line and if you want to make comparisons I reckon it should be torque rather than Kw or Hp .

Torque numbers are not rev/time related ones like Kw or Hp are , torque is a straight unit of force measurement .

Sk Gary said years ago that dyno graphs should have 1/4 1/2 and 3/4 throttle runs as well because this would show up what an engine does when its "hole" isn't fully open . No ones drives a road car or even a track car at full throttle everywhere and the transitions are really important .

Most people open up a bit to get up to speed and cruise at that speed up hill down dale etc . I've been across Heathcote Road and down the Princs Hwy to Dapto lots in the last week and to tell the truth I'm rarely out of 5th or at more than 3000 revs when up to speed . My car can generally pull 5th gear up all but the steepest hills in 80 km/h posted areas and thats at an indicated 22-2300 revs .

I find my GTRS really good round town , mostly 60-70 km/h , and it pulls really well in 4th or if need be a squirt in 3rd .

I don't honestly think we can boot any of these cars around anywhere legally in more than 3rd gear so I have to wonder how far is it necessary to go performance wise - in a mostly road car . Don't worry I also wonder what it would be like to have 300 WKw and I guess knowing it would feel good but having a use for it would be something else . It doesn't take 300 wheel Kw to cruise at 110-120 and I don't think an expressway hill has been invented that an R33 couldn't sail over at 3000 revs .

I'm all for people getting what they want but the goal I mainly seek is strong part throttle performance because I rarely use full throttle .

Lately I've been researching GTX2867Rs GTX3067Rs and the GT3076R 52T thats sill in its box . GTX3071R is beyond what I want because I think they push the boost threshold too high as in where they come on song and haul .

One thing I was surprised to find out , and this came from a fellers research at the VW Vortex site , is that the compressor performance of the GTX67mm wheel is VERY similar to the 71mm 52T GT wheel - which is what GTRSs use . Admittedly thats going off Garretts 71mm 52T GT map and note Garrett didn't use port shrouded compressor housings like HKS did on the GTRS .

If you look at the current Volume 5 Honeywell Garrett cattledog the power potential of the 67mm X wheel is from memory 500 Hp and the 71mm 52T GT wheel 475 hp . A whole 25 Hp/17Kw difference if you could take these compressors right to the bleeding edge at approx 2.5 pressure ratio - maybe 22-23 pounds of boost . I believe the 67X wheel is rated at 47 pounds of air flow by mass so if you take my old conservative 10% off that gives you 42 pounds of air and approximately 420 hp potential - at the crankshaft . Even if you say GTX wheels work better when pushed and use 5% your going to be pushing real hard to get 400 brumbies at the treads .

I think we know that in the real world we aren't going to get an RB25 there with a GT28 turbine and 0.64 housing so its back to the damn turbine side again . GT30 and AGAIN there are a few choices though the uncropped 60mm 84T one is easiest mainly because we can get IW housings for them .

HKS really wasn't stupid when they had Garrett grind the cropped version of the GT30 turbine .

Intermission - back later .

Edited February 17, 2013 by discopotato03

[AngryRB]

I think the manifold is excellent and would transform any turbo, but I'm not selling them, I'm just passing on my experience.

I should clarify that with my power comparisons above, there are so may variables (different temps/dyno's etc) but the main point of difference may be diff ratio... Mine is 4.08:1 so if you're is the same the comparison will be "mostly" valid for full throttle.

is there a torque graph for comparison? i had a boost leak in that graph too,

also your curve was started earlier at 30k's and mine at 60k's, and we both at full 15psi by 3800rpm, interesting how the bigger turbo compares , although the build up of boost is quicker on the GTRS.

Edited February 18, 2013 by AngryRBGTX

[discopotato03]

I was saying HKS wasn't stupid when they had Garrett crop their 60mm 84 trim GT30 turbine back to around 56mm and 84 trim .

Like Garrett did later (GT3071R) HKS could of used the full sized GT30 turbine in their "GT2835" turbos but obviously found that lacking as in laggy down low .

Garret has never used this cropped turbine in anything other than a bored out GT28 turbine housing and we know thats fairly useless .

Hot sides have always a big problem in petrol performance turbos because the higher temperatures (compared to diseasels) means they pretty much have to use expensive and difficult to produce castings . Virtually all T3 flanged Garrett GT30 turbine housings are made to suit the full sized GT30 turbine and its a pity they don't machine some to suit the cropped version of their turbine wheel . This is probably all they could do to get a bit better turbine response than the full sized version has and you'd think should work better with the 67mm X compressor and their 71mm GT ones .

As Nismoid said Wolverine has had a good selection of turbos on RB25s and even he says there is a distinct jump in the power and loss of some turbine response going from a GTRS to a GT2835 Pro S . Before I go there is one more variable between these two HKS spec Garret turbos and thats the comp housing family sizes . Neither is a Garrett made housing but they are made to fit Garrett compressor backplates , the RS being T04"B" size and the 2835 Pro S T04"E" size . Compressor wheels are the same Garrett 71mm GT family though 52T for the RS and 56T for the 2835 Pro S . Really everything went up a notch with the 2835 Pro and you would expect to lose a little of that nice part throttle torque that the GTRS had . Wolverine has told me that in the day to day driving round the burbs he sometimes misses the little extra zing the GTRS had and its something you'd probably notice more in a heavier Stagea . Maybe he can tells us if he reckons it'd be less noticable in an R33 coupe .

In a perfect world maybe Garrett could give us a version of the GTX3067R with the cropped turbine and fit a 0.63 AR GT30IW turbine housing on the back of it .

If I could buy second hand a turbine housing and dump from a 2835 Pro S I reckon I could organise a turbine change to put a cropped GT30 turbine into a GT2867R cartridge . Bash the two together and have probably the best 300 or very close RWKW almost bolt on turbocharger for a street RB25DET .

Still using a B comp housing and probably no spacers on the exhaust side .

Anyone want to sell me a 0.68AR GT Pro S turbine housing and dump pipe ?

Cheers A .

Edited February 18, 2013 by discopotato03

[discopotato03]

Or thinking about it just buy a 2835 cartridge in 52T and use the RS comp housing (bolt) and the Pro S turbine housing (bolt) . With the Pro S dump it literally should all bolt up .

A .

[Joshbigt62r]

Discopotato03 you would have to be the most knowledgable person I know of turbos. I absolutely love your thinking with the gt2867r X with a cropped gt30 wheel bashed together in a .68 hks pro s rear. That would be the absolute best street set up on paper. Should produce awesome spool with that little bit extra top end we all want. Hmm I wish you could buy the hks housing new on there own and there dumps. Garrett need to get there act together and start doing these as a bolt on gtx turbo. Disco do you think there would be any other way of getting a turbo with gtrs response and the

[Lithium]

It's easy to make an HKS GT-RS look silly in every way, simply move away from the Garrett/HKS catalog and put an EFR6758 on there to IMPROVE on the spool over the GTRS and make more power up top - or go a twin scroll EFR7163 to have similar drive from down low, more torque per psi, more response and much more power. It will not be cheap, but you'll end up with a response monster!

DP is very knowledgeable on Garrett/HKS turbos but don't confuse the fact he talks heaps about it with the fact he knows infinitely more than those around him, he is just passionate (which is fine, I am too but just don't have as much time or inclination to write big rants these days). So yeah, don't ignore everyone else - there are plenty who have knowledge or experience which he might not and it sounds like you want to do push forth with this quite hard and there is more out there than Garrett.

[Joshbigt62r]

I can't edit my post for some reason. But I meant to put 300kw power. What sort of torque figures could this Frankenstein turbo produce disco?