hypergear
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Everything posted by hypergear
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Thanks for uploading. I was about to re-size them first. Unfortunately above turbo had some shipping damaged to the actuator lever which caused it not been able to shut in the earlier run. Great to see thing's back in working order. Hopping to see more power at 20psi -
As some already seen the ceramic ball bearing high flow results. This is based on a stock Rb25det with factory head, cams and cam gears with forged bottom. Turbo did have some unexpected boost creep issues due to a newer designed waste gating system. Tuning video footage of 4x consecutive runs. with consistent 321rwkws: Turbo has been pulled apart, we are analyzing its bearing components and modifying its turbine wheel refer to some skeptics for faster torque gain. Also we will be testing some cage less air craft ceramic bearings for even faster spool time. Also for people whom's interested in sleeving stock rubber pipe with metal and hopping for great HP. Below is a dyno comparison to show you it doesn't work. and please don't waste time trying. (The drop at 6500RPMs was from operator back off per discussion earlier) I would highly recommend going fora 4inch metal intake pipe with pod. All ATR43G3/4 units will be now built with a .70 comp housing with a 4inch inlet unless special request.
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I run 4inch metal intake pipe with a pod using rubber sleeves on top of the stock comp housing. That worked extremely well and sounds pretty good too. Would be highly recommend to run that. I recorded some induction noises from it with a Nokia phone lol. have a listen. Induction sound
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Well I'm not running ceramic turbine wheels. Still aluminum comp wheel with inconel steel turbine wheel. Only the rolling object's been changed to ceramic ball bearings instead of brass bush. The ceramic bearings has higher heat range then brass or steel, so in theory they don't even needs to be cooled. This prototype is running water and oil cooling just to be safe, plus I've drilled the oil galleries larger then standard steel BB cores for greater lubrication and cooling efficiency. It shouldn't have any heat problems.
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Yes we can build it with any sort of wheel configurations with any housings. Will only be doing it after a lengthy test.
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Little update with the ceramic BB turbo. Its started run and was very quite. (I thought its going to make lots bearing noises). I took it for a quick spin. This probably one of the fastest spooling turbo I've ever had. Lot faster then traditional steel ball bearing cores I've used. It goes from 0 to 20psi in like half a second. Was like blink of an eye you are sitting on 20psi. On switch off you can hear it spins for ages before it comes to an stop. Its currently in a .63 OP6 turbine. Should make around 300rwkws, I'll be doing some harsh testings, hopefully it just work the way it is. Will be heading towards Status for some tuning coming week for some results. (yes I will set my rev limiter higher)
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If your final goal is 300rwkws then its recommended to go for a turbo that can archive that, so you don't have to change turbo again when you are ready for it. And it would definitely encourage to have it happen sooner. . I can build with a 7psi actuator, you can exchange the actuator free for a high pressure one when you got injectors and ready to tune. For the RB30det setup I would recommend the PU high flow or an actual ATR43 G3 or G4 in .82 and .70 comp. The larger housings will definitely help with power consistency.
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All the argument around the sharp power drop is just the cause from from a pre-set Rev limiter. The problem was the limiter was set to cut just before the RPM range of 7000RPM on the dyno. Which "the drop" stands for a actual fuel cut or operator throttle back off. The so called "shit fight" dated all the way back to 06 with the exact people. Which I treat it as motivation for innovation of better products. The ceramic BB turbo is still in the process of getting installed. Its a very first prototype, I will need to run few thousand Ks with some track time before confident enough to sale it. The highest No. we've got with a OP6 rear housing high flow was 295rwkws at this stage. Its in the updated high flow menu named the "KAI" profile. So if you are after 300rwkws high flow that or the PU profile would be recommended.
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Thanks to Trent to clear up the mass. After all those fuss The sharp drop around 6500 is just rev limiter related. Also Not True. Depending on high flow specs. Its not just about stuffing big wheels in to small housings, Its about how to build a balanced charging system, and how to control boost. So far I've done few pairs but no one has yet sent in any dynosheets, Been told its very responsive. My estimate of them after high flowing is about 300rwkws.
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Just looking back to this high flow: The final tune peeked 305rwkws at 6500RPMs and droped 15kws at 7000RPMs which still made it 290rwkws at rev limiter. I think its good enough as far as high flow goes thou. But I consult with Tuners and engineers to see if this can be straightened by modifying few things. Also when wheel spins. you lose peak power, torque and get incorrect reading. Note 2x power curves of the ATR43G3-P1 test runs. with and without people in the boot. That shown lots wheel spinning, and less wheel spinning.
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But on the same time I don't think your high flow made that much power either. Keep in mind this is 305rwkws final result. It doesn't seems to affect power under 260rwkws. Can you scan a copy of your sheet? Plus I've never blamed wheel spin for drop off. Its blamed for incorrect RPM reading. So at moment I'm doing all my runs on a hub dyno. I think I can get away from the drop with internal gate on high powered applications. Stay tuned.
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I'll be interested to test it only if its rated road legal. I received a $760 fin from EPA (01/01/09 first day of 09 lol) in Vic for having an externally bleeded gate. I will be more interested in developing a street legal sort of setup. I'll be considering to do those sort of setups if plumb back is legal. and plumb screamer back in to the front pipe.
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By reading up the dynosheet section is appears every GT30xx internally gated turbo on unopened motor that has managed to crack over 260rwkws has this drop after 6500RPMs. While externally gated and camed setups seems to have less or none. Cams and cam gears also helped, I will consult with Trent or Sam in terms of best cam gear angle and setups. It Could be external gate have bleeded out some heat to give the turbo a slight better efficiency up top. But it would be pretty difficult to get internally gated. Or we can go up size in housing and turbine wheel, which also give similar effects with lag. For the best result would be running a 50mm external gate with cam setup. That should eliminate the drop and possibily more top end. How ever for a road car this would be a pretty big EPA issue. Also if I run external gate and plumb it back, then wouldn't this be considered as road legal "internal" gate?
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Read my reply. The car was not strapped down. Dynorun was to 7000RPMS, Low RPM reading was due to wheel Spin. Dr.Drift has already address it in earlier post. PM and ask him your self. I'm telling you that a 76mm 56T comp wheel in GT30 turbine or a GT3582 in .63 turbine will be struggling to achieve 320rwkws. Even you do go through the whole dyno section you can not find one that can do that. The purpose of this thread is for the test and trail of our high flows services, custom build turbo profiles based on various engines and a collection of data sheets. I would appreciate if people can post geninue quires and I'll be happy to assist with data. I do not appreciate people here posting abusive comments. Please keep it clean and technical. Thank you all.
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Please prof me wrong by show me an example of your claimed GT3076 int gated claim with 98 fuel making that power on unopened engine. Have a read in the dynosheet section your self. Every sing GT30xx int gated turbo over 260rwkws on stock RB25det without cams or cam gears have the exact same drop off point. Except not all of them are scaled upto 7000RPMs. All I need is a pair of cam gears to alter the whole power curve. How ever that curve is pointless.
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They are exact same profiled high flow with OP6 rear housing. Except Sam is running on external gate and cam gears. Only proven the effects of having such mods instead of the actual turbo. Not against Garrett, we use their parts, rebuild / high flow their turbos and retail their goods all day every day. The ATR43 project is a delicate turbo that is specifically made for RB25dets for optimised result on stock setup. which our results have spoken for themselves. The 300RPMs would be from a slight wheel spin. Sam's not backing off throttle for 300RPMS. This only point out the difference this could make by using Cam gears and external gates. Any one can tell the difference in the shape of curves. Sam's not running as much boost as the other car did. In your theroy both of them should drop off exact amount which is not the case. You've already descriped how marginal difference in cams could alter the power put. With solid results I've already answered your question. Guit toy is not running on 98 fuel (or internal gate). I haven't read all his posts in the tread, but this is one thing that I did notice. Plus GT35 wheel does not drop with stock setup. Which is what I've said by running a larger turbo or with large external gate. This is a ATR45, or you can refer as customized GT3582. note there is no drop in power. The car's not been strapped it is wheel spinning on the rollers. It will still be the best responding bolton turbo for its power based on 98 fuel and fully stock engine.
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Prof my point that the power drop is related to the cams. Ie: Identical spec OP6 standard high flow This turbo fitted on to a car with cam gears: This one is running stock cam gears: Notice the power band in between 20000RPMs to 6000RPMs, and after 6000RPMs. So for better results get a $50 cam gear. Plus I'm not considering any of my turbos are downgraded from Garretts. We've used Garrett GT3076 as a foundation with wheel trim and size adjustments for a better performer on a stock RB25det.
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Ash What you talking about. Go and check the Dyno sheet section. None cars would stay on peek power band for ever. How many of them are going for 7500RPMS? This is a fully stock engine head with stock cams and cam gears. Unless head work is done they can not hold power at 7000RPMS + with internal gate. Unless its a massive turbo or a large external gate. The drop would be more related to the engine it self rather then a turbo. Add cam gears you fix it. None one is going to rev up to 7000RPMs+. and the 500RPMs is not a useful power band either. EDIT 14/10/10: The power drop was from operator throttle back off around rev limiter per comments by tuner in page 55 Some of the discussions below which I believed during the time been might not be relevant.
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You can't really get much more response unless running race fuel or some jungle juice? This is a $1450 turbo here. No cam gears, no cams, 98 fuel, internally gated, fully stock Rb25det none Neo engine setup. 3 hours to install. 200rwkws @ 4000RPMs. To get 200rwkws @ 3000RPMs is abit unrealistic. Above is also based on a 9 sec short ramp run. Not cheating with long ramp run either.
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Good street turbo for RB20dets is very different to RB25dets. Its more categoried into a 4cyc class. Ie. they will works heaps better with a turbo thats made for a 2L 4cyc engine. I would recommend the ATR43SS, There are 2x versions which is in similar specifications as a 2860RS and a 2871RS in .64 bolton rear housing. Those works beautifully with RB20det. I would like to address all dyno results I've posted as based on standard ramp speed, not the high speed ramp. So they are very honest and accountable results.
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Also this is a brand new core built from scratch. Not the modified version using stock bearing housing, and not using the weak factory thrust plate either. This is lot more beefed up, its designed so you can run it 20psi all day every day. I will be interested to see the integrity of those bearing cartridges first, it won't be commercially available through more tests.
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Not internally gated, steel bearings, less in HP, not bolton. You spend more time and coins to fit it, and not getting the same sort of power. I have that in stock for $1600 including GST if you want. I've gone through this numerous times, with installation guide in previous pages. All you need to install ATR43 is a metal intake pipe and a 90 degrees silicon hose in 2 inches. It is sold with a braid oil feeding line. This package bolt on to: Factory manifold Factory Dump pipe Factory Water lines and fittings Factory Oil feeding port Factory Oil drain I would call this 90% bolton, Its a 3 hours job remove and fit from a experienced mechanic.
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True, but none of them bolton to stock setup. So we spend more time and work to engineer a bolton solution, which works out cheaper then having to go through fabrication, and produce similar power. The engineering and making of the Ceramic BB core is lot more then just buying a Garret steel bearing core. I would also like to point out is this is running twin ceramic BB cartridges, not the single cartridge with a bush on the bottom. I'm not a big fan of the MHI units, I bought one core for a Transit van not long ago, they are made and came out of Taiwan while the seller is claiming they are made and sent from Japan. They don't look geninue Mitisubishi to me. And would you have any data of how they performed on a stock Rb25det setup? I couldn't find any.
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If they test to work 100% you'll be looking to spending about $1900 to build in any of the brand new ATR43 units or around $1600 with Kai high flows. Also The high flow page has been updated. 2x New high flow profiles has been added. Standard high flow options using standard housings: 21U R33 turbo: 240rwkws OP6 R34 Turbo: 260rwkws Kai High flow using standard housings: 21U R33 turbo: 270rwkws OP6 R34 turbo: 290rwkws PU high flow using .82 rear housing: 21U / OP6 turbo: 300rwkws Detailed information is at our website: http://www.digi-hardware.com/rb25t3hiflow.html
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For better response I would be going for the .81. I don't think its going to chock the car since the turbine wheel of yours is very large with lots of area between fins.
